dan l

iTrader: (3)

Do you have an IX? I don't like iridiums. NGK coppers changed every time I take it racing.

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

Evo 8.

I agree, I've use the coppers for over 11yrs in 4G63's. I was testing out iridiums for the hell of it and re-realized I was still right. lol

Ted B

iTrader: (6)

It definitely works with the stock ECU, but it takes a good deal of fiddling with the ignition map and even things that seem unrelated (e.g. ISCV lookup table) to get it working acceptably well. Don't ask me why, it's just those numerous gremlins one deals with when retaining the factory ECU.

I can't blame you for going Autronic. I was dead set on the SM4, but I need knock control, so that notion was short lived.

dan l

iTrader: (3)

Not to be picky or insulting, just trying to help you out. Anyways are you running OEM "spark plug" wires. IE the jumper wires for your coil packs? OEM NGK's are a really good wire to run for COP's.

Also some resistor spark plugs (which you need to run to suppress the signals) don't stand up to a COP system. Basically they can be damaged. Mine is running well on NGKBPR9ES but I also change them out like underwear. If your running into issues with plugs being "burned up" by the very high output of a M&W or Dynatek units then you have solutions (but i've been unable to source the plugs) in a inductively suppressed plugs.

I would try some fresh 8es plugs and some new NGK jumper wires (as the COP has a MUCH higher voltage and may be breaking down older wires).

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

Dan,

Yes, fairly new OEM wires. Have stood up to 28-30 psi.

Either way, I haven't tried the dynatek since I moved back to coppers. I will try hooking it back up this week and see what happens.

Are you using multispark or normal?

dan l

iTrader: (3)

Multispark. You must use multispark or part throttle will be horrible. Do you have any devices in your engine bay that might be noisy contributing to false triggering of the CDI box? You can shield the wires real quick with aluminum foil to help troubleshoot that if you feel you may have a false triggering problem.

Also, on the DSM (not sure how an evo will react) the CDI box artificially advanced my ignition timing because my inductive stock ignition would lag a bit before sparking because the CDI lights it off right away. You should check your base timing as per the FSM with a timing light to see if you are having problems with this. My base timing changed about 4 degrees! As you know, this is easily fixed on a 1g. You'll have to put the unit in single spark mode to check base timing.

bradrs

4 degrees at idle is a HUGE change, almost a full millisecond change.

While an inductive ignition spark voltage will rise a little slower, it isn't going to be that much slower. Have you verified that you are triggering on the right edge?

Your explanation of how the inductive igntion charges the coils and lights off is a little off, from what I could tell. The factory ignition begins charging the coils by grounding the one side of the coil. It doesn't just fire as soon as there is enough energy to fire. What happens is that this dwell time is done before it tries to fire the ignition. When the ignition releases the ground on the coil, is when the spark actually occurs. That is the event that the ECU is timing, and that is event that the CDI looks for as an input to create its own spark.

Normally there would be a very slight delay caused by the CDI(immeasurable with a timing light at idle). But the voltage rising on the plug would be quicker with the CDI(again this shouldn't be that measurable). A 4 degree change in timing tells me something else is off. Did you recheck the timing at a higher RPM to see if it is a consistent 4 degrees? You will probably need one of the timing lights with a programmable advance to do this.

With the Dyna harness, you shouldn't have problems with other things causing enough interference to give you problems. The Dyna harness and mounting bracket keeps it close to the engine, and you shouldn't have any other electronics in that area. I believe the Sparktech stuff is the same.

Razorlab, you may want to have Dynatek look at your harness as well as the box. Since you are in the LA area, you might be able to talk Dynatek into looking at the system on your car.


Mitch, control of the dwell would be great to adjust things and probably get an improvement without changing any hardware. The downside is that there are several parameters that affect dwell, and they may not behave as desired. Whoever does this testing really needs to hook up an oscilloscope to verify the dwell time behaves correctly. I tried this on a DSM years ago and changed the dwell tables to what should have resulted in a flat dwell time regardless of battery voltage, and it was still changing with RPM.

dan l

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, I can't get the explanation into words to well. I know how it works upstairs but am not so great at explaining.

I was setting the timing with an old school light and looking at my crank pulley. Lots of variables, but I did have to bump the CAS a noticeable amount. For whatever reason I do not know. Also my idle is about 1400rpm's. I just wanted to reinforce that it is a good idea to check your base timing.

bradrs

It is definitely a good idea to check it, especially on a DSM where it is adjustable. None of the CDIs on the market should affect this noticeably. The ARC-2 was a good bit faster than most of the others I have directly measured. At least the early version was, I haven't measured the new ones. But regardless of brand, they should not affect timing at idle as long as they are triggering on the right edge.

The most important thing to do on the ARC-2 for installation is to make sure you get the switches in the right setting, before starting the vehicle. The timing should take care of itself.

Did you check base timing right before installation? Did you swap 1G CAS? I have heard that the optical ones are a good bit slower than the newer hall effect ones, and that may alter your timing. I'd check it again with the ignition unplugged, to see if you still see a timing difference.

dan l

iTrader: (3)

The car won't start if triggered on the wrong edge. Ask me how I know LOL.

I started the car then took the car out. It was spark knocking a bit (on the exact same ROM) so I checked the timing and it was a bit to far forward, pulled it back and all was well. You have to understand DSM coils are big honkers and I don't think they fire immediately. The secondary voltage has to ramp up till the plug actually jumps the gap. So no I did not do a back to back test. I had the timing set from a few weeks ago then put the CDI on and had to bump the CAS back a tick. Something as simple as changing my plug gap has changed my timing maps in the past. Even swapping out for new plugs at the same gap has caused issues. Actually anything caused issues. However my last dyno day with the Dynatek and the car was rock solid for all the pulls (until I added 2 degrees too much timing).

I am running a 90 green top CAS. The whole "inductive CAS is faster than Optical CAS" is bull**** in my opinion. I've tried the black top inductive and actually broke it trying to spin to 9000 RPM's. Shepard runs a green top optical CAS just fine to 10+K rpm's so when I'm at that level I'll maybe think about running a black top inductive like Rau (read never).

I will tell you their is a difference although I can't put a scientific number on how much it is since I was dealing with a timing light and hash marks on my crank pulley with my own interpretation at the end of a long day. I will always check my base timing after ignition work from now on, that is all.

JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

Awesome tech thread. I wish I had more to contribute but I am definitely absorbing alot of this for future use. One thing I have noticed, and it might be my imagination, is my car feels smoother with the S2s now with the COP I have than it did on the stock ignition. The only thing I can attribute it to is firing a larger gap, but even then it might be just "thinking" it feels better.

Whoop_ass

iTrader: (7)

TedB i hear you about the Knock control something i miss dearly about the stocker...
but you must bear in mind stock is built to save the motor ....
so hopefully i should not have to much trouble setting up the Spartech COP on the ECU...

funny thing is the stock ecu is very tempremetal... some days it hauls *** some days it feels lethargic..

Autronic ..every day the thing drives the same.. but ye knock control is a big thing i miss from the stocker ..

dan l

iTrader: (3)

The reason your stock ecu is temperamental is because it is saving your motor LOL. When not knocking both my turbo mistu's on stock ECU's haul ***.

Whoop_ass

iTrader: (7)

naaa!!
even when they not knocking they still don't feel the same as the autronic.

when i had the stocker in the car, i had temphra Cell flash set to flash on 2 counts..
would not flash but still didn't go the same as some days..
but you right the stocker does a great job looking after the engine, aftermarket ECU's are designed around making the most possible power,
even if it means destroying your pistons.

But thats were a good tuner comes into play and you would rather be a bit more conservative than have a glory car for 2 weeks

but lets keep topic on track

COP for BOOST FTW!!!

bradrs

They can be made to start with it on the wrong edge. I never did it personally, but some people(I will withhold names to protect the innocent) managed to do so. When it wouldn't crank, they figured out a way to get the engine to spin quicker for starting .I can't remember for certain, but think it was one of those battery boosters people use for jump starting. They got it spinning quick, and somehow got it started. It ran like crap and wouldn't idle.

I've also seen another post recently where someone got it started on a dsm, with the switch wrong.

When you have this wrong, it is very obvious something is wrong. It is an easy fix though.


It could also be a matter of more thorough combustion. Or if you are running a gap that is wider, and have a much more powerful spark, it may start the flame front quicker, even though the stock spark starts at the same time. The stock ignition spark really should happen at almost the same time. The size(turns ratios, inductance, etc) of the coils makes a huge difference for charging them, but on discharge it all happens very quickly.

I've seen that often as well. You can light off a mixture, but if you are right on the edge, any little thing(gaps, plug wear, etc), can throw you off. And the closer you are to misfires, the weaker your spark is generally going to be. This could result in the combustion not really starting as quick as it should. The CDI should be much more consistent in this, since it puts all its energy through the plug in such a brief period.


The info I saw posted on this was on the dsmlink forum, and it looked as though some dsm guys have done testing on it to prove that it does have a slightly different delay. It doesn't matter though, as long as you build the timing map for your car. All of those delays can be ignored.