mrfred

iTrader: (50)

Fuel injectors should definitely be closed and not leak when unenergized. I thought the same thing about unburned fuel, so I tried cranking the motor several times with a 5-10 seconds in between. The injector plugs were disconnected the entire time. Each time, it would almost start for split second and then crank with an occasional cylinder firing.

If someone with stock injectors wants to try it with their car, I'd definitely appreciate it, but I wouldn't be unhappy if no one did it. The injector plug clips are a bit of a PITA to R&R.

mrfred

iTrader: (50)

Will do.

scheides

iTrader: (10)

I installed my injectors last Thursday evening, before a weekend of trashing on OWWDEE S4's. First note, be sure to plug in vacuum line going to FPR. Any adjustments you make won't do much good until you do so

Other than that, I started with mrfred's values and have been fooling around with the car ever since. Startup is decent, fuel trims were reasonable, so all I had to do was dial them in. Well, first timer here, it took me a while but I have LTFT Mid hovering right around 0% (-1% to +1%, sometimes as much as +3% but meh). WOT runs yield reasonable results on the narrowband, but a re-tune is in store for sure.

My only issue now is messing around with the 4v-12v values to try and get cold (first time in over 10 hours) and warm-starting (i.e. car has sat for 1-3 hours after running already that day). Hot starting (shut car off for a sec, fire it back up) is never an issue. I've been fiddling with values, and just when I get warm-starts working (I think) well, cold-starts don't seem happy. I want to post my numbers but I'd like to wait until I have this issue figured out to do so. I tried a ton of different values, but I landed at scaling of 1008 and 12 and 14v latency values are right around .84 and .82.

Once I get the starting issues resolved, I will be very happy but overall I'm very impressed with these injectors, yet mistified why our numbers all seem to vary so much. Probably because they are so different than the stockers? Still I have friends with PTE 1000's and their scaling is in the 800's....blarg...

mrfred

iTrader: (50)

Yeah, these 1050s flow a real 1050 cc/min. The numbers on my injector sheet were actually just shy of 1100 cc/min. I'm pretty sure now that the scaled values in the ROM come in a little low because the Evo base fuel pressure is around 40 psi.

Anyhow, I do see some wider variations in the trims as well. I need to look at how the trims are calculated. This may be some thing that is characteristic of all larger injectors. If the amount of fuel that is added for say a 1% increase/decrease in the trim value scales with the injector size, then the trims will add/subtract way more fuel than is needed to move the fuel quantity back to the stoic range. This would result in some wide swings in trims.

Another thing to keep in mind though is that the trims to vary with weather and vehicle operating conditions. When I was on stock injectors, the trims would vary by as much as 7%. In theory, some of this can be corrected by perfectly dialing in the latency values, but that won't get rid of it all.

BTW, if you are looking at optimizing the latency at startup, I measured about 10-11 V during startup, so you'll want to tweak on the 9.38 V latency value as well.

scheides

iTrader: (10)

Ya, mine were flow rated & matched at 1072cc's each. I brought up the 12v value to ~1.03ms and bumped up the 9v value, seems to have helped but it'll be a few more days of testing before I know for sure.

I did some basic power tuning with my narrowband because when I enabled the alky, the car would run so rich it would fall on its face after 5500rpms. I ended up taking out freaking 2.5 points in the AFR maps up top and 2 points down low just to bring them to a semi-normal range (~.90v). Car freaking rips now, still only ~60% IDC peak :P

dan l

iTrader: (3)

scheides, you are on the right track with your cold starting tuning. Your trims are very acceptable also. Yes those injectors have a much different curve than a normal style injector. Some of it has to do with having a completely different coil in the injector and some of it has to do with the different mass of the metering mechanism. If your WOT AFR is way off you can adjust your global to compensate before you start on the maps. The global will affect the mid trim a bit but small changes should affect it very little but make large changes on your WOT fuel delivery.

scheides

iTrader: (10)

What do you mean by adjust global? You mean scaling, or is there something else I'm missing?

My AFR's on my pump gas map were mostly inline, but my alky map I have leaned it out quite a bit before bringing them inline (just on narrowband, shooting for about .89).

Here's my values as they sit. Fuel trims w/ AC or no AC hover VERY close to zero. Cold start is perfect (its about 60-75 degrees ambient right now and I have a PC680 battery). Hot start is perfect. Warm start (20-160 minutes after shutting hot car off) is pretty lackluster. If I crank the key and then let off the car will stumble, stumble, stumble to life. If I blip the throttle a bit, it helps it a bit, not much. If I crank it, it feels like it does not want to start, and crank, crank, crank, crank, crank, crank it slowly sputters to life (different than the other way though).

Scaling: 1008

volts latency (ms)
4.69 4.440
7.03 3.192
9.38 1.680 (see below re this issue)
11.72 1.032
14.06 0.840
16.41 0.576
18.68 0.432

The 9, 11, 14, and 16v values I have actively seen affect my fuel trims. The others, I'm not sure entirely what to do with, but have "tween'd" them with their neighboring values. I have been messing with the 9v value the most lately, I keep dancin around 1.6ms and can't find a happy value.

Any advice, I would LOVE, as I am perplexed why I only have warm-start issues while everything else is totally dialed in.

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

Same issue I was having on this customers Evo with these injectors.

However, latest report is the car doesn't even start, no interior lights, etc.

So I think there was/is something else working against me on that car.

dan l

iTrader: (3)

Globing and scaling are the same things. I prefer the word global as its more intuitive.

Your on the right course of action by "tweening" the values. I build an excel spread sheet and graph my latencey vs voltage so that I can get a visual on it. It helps a lot.

Ahh the cold start vs warm start scenario. See if you car favors a certain voltage with respect to cold starting vs warm starting. You should be able to log batter voltage when cranking as the ECU is on and running. At the end of the day though you may have to make a compromise.

Remember that an injector nearly twice as big as the stockers will spray X amount of fuel in roughly half the time. Therefore WHERE the stock ECU syncs the injector START pulsed width on the crank rotation cycle might work well for a stocker but not always as great for an larger injector. That is something you can't adjust and have to live with.

See if you can alter your curve a little to aide cold starting and warm starting.

Also, it might be me but I was having a helluva time starting my car today in the heat with some E85 in the tank. In the past I had NO warm starting issues, but today it almost didn't want to start, weird.

mrfred

iTrader: (50)

I'll be posting revised scaling and latency values tomorrow.

oldevodude

iTrader: (3)

The only e85 station within 50 miles is having electrical issues with their pumps and cash register interface they been down for almost a week now so no tuning with e85. I will post my values as I was running less latency than you guys but then again I have 1000's and not the 1050's according to Jen he modifies the 850's and then labels them as 1000 or 1050 according to what they flow when he flow tests them. My chart was like 1025 average for the set.

.

scheides

iTrader: (10)

The problem is, I can't seem to get cold and warm start working well with the same values. If I drop 9 and 11v latencies down considerably, warm start is much better, but cold start sucks. Fix cold start and warm start sucks. Gah!

mrfred

iTrader: (50)

Here is where I'm at with my latency settings and E85 injector scaling:

After a day of driving around town, the idle and cruise trims were both 0.4%. Cold starts and hot starts are perfect. Still some issue with warm starts just like when I was running pump gas. I'll have more details on this issue in a few days.

The system voltage is pretty much always on 14-14.1 V except when the car is starting, and then its 10-11 V, so when it came to tuning the latencies, there is no good way to get real feedback when trying to tune anything other than the 9.72 V, 11.7 V, and 14.1 V values. So what I did was compare my benchtop measurements of latency of the stock injectors with actual stock latency values in the ROM. I took the relative difference between the two, and used it to adjust my tuned FIC 1050 values relative to my benchtop measurements of my FIC 1050s. Best way to understand what I mean is to look at the chart below. The tuned FIC 1050 curve has the same relationship with the benchtop FIC 1050 measurements as the stock injector latency curve has with the benchtop measurement of the stock injectors. The distance between the FIC 1050 curves is determined by the latency value that I get at 14.1 V, and I make the curves cross at 7.0 V like the stock injectors do.

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

mrfred, those latencies are *very* close to what I ended up with this one Evo. Still had all these issues.

Of course now the car won't start at all so I think other things where working against me...

evilempire76

iTrader: (42)

Any idea of when you will know what's going on with this customers car?