thinking about ditching my LC1
[QUOTE=TTP Engineering;5916846]
I didn't listen to Scott at first and bought the Innovate XD-16 / LC1, the very day after it came in the mail, I read some of his posts and researched on my own... (Advice: You're supposed to do it the other way around - research then buy)
I have not taken the XD-16 / LC1 out of the box since it came in the mail and it's now up for sale on these very forums just a day after getting it in the mail. I am awaiting an open slot for TTP Engineering to install a Zt-2 full works system with all sensors on my Evo IX.
The research and the facts don't lie. I was convinced it was a better product that quick...
Here is a Wideband shootout thread I thought was a great read: http://www.zeitronix.com/press/afrshootout1.htm (something I just noticed on that article picture, LMAO the Innovate LM-1 already has an error on it - HAHAHAHA!)
The item went toe to toe with MoTEC, and if you know MoTEC- that EMS is no joke!
P.S. a link to my XD-16 for sale: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=357783 -lol
Tephra, join the hundreds of others within Innovate's own forum that experience the same failures you have.
Zeitronix and yes they are trouble free.
The innovator of the zeitronix came from the medical instrumentation field where precision instrumentation and reliability become of life and death importance.
No calibration needed.
Self calibrating.
Circuit protection. Even a monkey could install one, even if they reversed polarity and tapped 13 wrong wires before they got it right.
Out of the box, the system comes with proprietary software that is excellent to log, trace, read, scroll and save.
It has many options for kavlico precision 3.5bar and 5bar sensors. It can read in a selectible CELCIUS, FAHRENHEIT, PSI, BAR, AFR, LAMBDA.
Out of the box it comes with tach input, TPS input, AFR, and AUX USER1 input for raw voltage logging.
The logs can also be split into smaller logs and separated by numeric points to isolate specific logs.
The logs can also be output to excel format in tab deliminated format at 74 samples per second. The fastest sample rate I know of.
It is a modular unit which you can add on MAP sensor, High speed K type thermocouple for EGT logging.
There is a programmable safeguard and warning alarm module you can use with it that can program simple alarms such as "900*C EGT" or complex warnings such as "IF BOOST 20PSI> AND TPS 70%> AND AFR 12.2>, THEN TRIGGER ALARM".
In the end it is an amazing unit which we owe much of our successful tuning career to. They have been trouble free on all of my personal Evo's, customer Evo's and we even have integrated one onto our 2008 MUSTANG DYNO AWD-500 SE EURO and it continues to work flawlessly.
As the master distributor for ZEITRONIX, I'd like for you to send me a PM so we can answer any other questions you have about the unit and get you taken care of.
Thanks Tephra.
Zeitronix and yes they are trouble free.
The innovator of the zeitronix came from the medical instrumentation field where precision instrumentation and reliability become of life and death importance.
No calibration needed.
Self calibrating.
Circuit protection. Even a monkey could install one, even if they reversed polarity and tapped 13 wrong wires before they got it right.
Out of the box, the system comes with proprietary software that is excellent to log, trace, read, scroll and save.
It has many options for kavlico precision 3.5bar and 5bar sensors. It can read in a selectible CELCIUS, FAHRENHEIT, PSI, BAR, AFR, LAMBDA.
Out of the box it comes with tach input, TPS input, AFR, and AUX USER1 input for raw voltage logging.
The logs can also be split into smaller logs and separated by numeric points to isolate specific logs.
The logs can also be output to excel format in tab deliminated format at 74 samples per second. The fastest sample rate I know of.
It is a modular unit which you can add on MAP sensor, High speed K type thermocouple for EGT logging.
There is a programmable safeguard and warning alarm module you can use with it that can program simple alarms such as "900*C EGT" or complex warnings such as "IF BOOST 20PSI> AND TPS 70%> AND AFR 12.2>, THEN TRIGGER ALARM".
In the end it is an amazing unit which we owe much of our successful tuning career to. They have been trouble free on all of my personal Evo's, customer Evo's and we even have integrated one onto our 2008 MUSTANG DYNO AWD-500 SE EURO and it continues to work flawlessly.
As the master distributor for ZEITRONIX, I'd like for you to send me a PM so we can answer any other questions you have about the unit and get you taken care of.
Thanks Tephra.
I didn't listen to Scott at first and bought the Innovate XD-16 / LC1, the very day after it came in the mail, I read some of his posts and researched on my own... (Advice: You're supposed to do it the other way around - research then buy)
I have not taken the XD-16 / LC1 out of the box since it came in the mail and it's now up for sale on these very forums just a day after getting it in the mail. I am awaiting an open slot for TTP Engineering to install a Zt-2 full works system with all sensors on my Evo IX.
The research and the facts don't lie. I was convinced it was a better product that quick...
Here is a Wideband shootout thread I thought was a great read: http://www.zeitronix.com/press/afrshootout1.htm (something I just noticed on that article picture, LMAO the Innovate LM-1 already has an error on it - HAHAHAHA!)
The item went toe to toe with MoTEC, and if you know MoTEC- that EMS is no joke!
P.S. a link to my XD-16 for sale: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=357783 -lol
Last edited by compscibOi; Jul 22, 2008 at 10:29 AM.
Wideband sensor wars!!!!!!
I'll admit I had initial problems with my lc-1 although in the end I ended up attaching ground of analog out for gauges and main ground direct to chassis and this took care of problems and any ground offset(s) were prolly equalized. In the end if I had 2 do it all over again I would prolly buy Zeitronix but my LC-1 is working fine.
I'll admit I had initial problems with my lc-1 although in the end I ended up attaching ground of analog out for gauges and main ground direct to chassis and this took care of problems and any ground offset(s) were prolly equalized. In the end if I had 2 do it all over again I would prolly buy Zeitronix but my LC-1 is working fine.
EvoM Guru
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From: Tri-Cities, WA // Portland, OR
When using the analog outs, wiring in a ZTX will be essentially as challenging as wiring in an LC-1 because of possible ground offsets associated with using analog outs.
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Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Sydney, Australia
What have you guys got to expect from el-cheapo widebands. The stuff that truly works costs thousands, not hundreds. Like I was saying, I got lucky with my LC1, but my customers have had nothing but trouble. Lately they seem to be working OK so maybe they fixed the issues. I setup one yesterday on an RX7 with a Haltech E11 yesterday and it was working consistently enough that I used it as a 3D target closed loop mapped system (can target other than 14.7AFR, and it worked without problem. Now that is trusting... to leave the engine in the hands of the cheap wideband! But it is only active below around 1/4 throttle.
For real tuning, I use both an Autronic setup (Dyno Dynamics re-label them), and where it is mission critical an M&W UEGO which is expensive but brilliant. The LC1 permanently in my car is not for tuning, it is to keep an eye on things and take notice of abnormal readings, not the actual readings themselves. Using the Apexi turbo timer as the display (they have an O2 input and calibration mapping) and the 0-1V output it works quite well because the reading is heavily damped. It sees steady readings and makes it easy to spot issues. Sensor is mounted under the sump and has never given an issue.
But I would still use something else over the LC1 given the choice myself these days. Even if they have fixed them, how do you truly trust them for WOT tuning.
For real tuning, I use both an Autronic setup (Dyno Dynamics re-label them), and where it is mission critical an M&W UEGO which is expensive but brilliant. The LC1 permanently in my car is not for tuning, it is to keep an eye on things and take notice of abnormal readings, not the actual readings themselves. Using the Apexi turbo timer as the display (they have an O2 input and calibration mapping) and the 0-1V output it works quite well because the reading is heavily damped. It sees steady readings and makes it easy to spot issues. Sensor is mounted under the sump and has never given an issue.
But I would still use something else over the LC1 given the choice myself these days. Even if they have fixed them, how do you truly trust them for WOT tuning.
Furthermore if the ZEITRONIX is tapped at the downpipe or testpipe and the other dyno pickup is at the tailpipe, then the tailpipe pickup WOULD READ LEANER because it is closer to free-air and the sample is diluted.
This is why we ONLY tap the upstream exhaust and do NOT use tailpipe clamps on the TTP-Engineering Dyno.
I recently tuned a Time Attack Evo to 11.8 AFR on our dyno. This was read at the tailpipe after a 100 cell cat.
2 days later I installed a zietronix wideband before the 100 cell cat so I could get AFR data at the Time Attack event. Logged through evoscan. What AFR did it show me? 11.8 AFR. dead on.
Make/use crap tail pipe sampling units and get crap results.
I do agree the DP is the A+ most accurate place to get wideband readings however. Not going to argue with that at all.
Last edited by razorlab; Jul 22, 2008 at 03:46 PM.
Evolving Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 261
Likes: 2
From: Silverdale,WA
I dunno guys, my LC-1 is money. I made sure i had the 1.10 firmware, which i did, i re-flashed it anyways. I installed it in the stock o2 housing after the turbo, which many many people say"NO NO NO" but its working just fine for me, i took it out last week to do a free-air calibration (just felt like it was due) and it looked just fine, no signs of overheating. As for the operation of the sensor, i've had one incident with it, i guess it lost its calibration data, and re-calibrated one morning in the o2 housing, which screwed it up bad, my o2 reading was completely wrong. Any to make it worse, my Analog #1 output goes to my ecu, but all it took was a sensor unplug and a key-on, to reset the firmware, then a free-air calibration, and bam, now its 8 months later and no problems. And all this talk about free-air calibration, it tells you when and how in the manual, i think its required for all bosch wbo sensors (which ship with tons of kits). Just use some hi-temp anti-seize on your threads and it breaks loose and will just turn by hand to get it out. Its so easy. Anyways, my LC-1 works just fine.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 9,486
Likes: 67
From: Melbourne, Australia
+1 to firmware upgrade making a big difference.
well I checked my LC1 yesterday and suprise suprise the settings were still correct.
I might leave it for a while - its just painful doing a proper free air cal on it. 12 hours engine off is not enough as I am reading about 0.8AFR richer that I am tuned for at the moment...
well I checked my LC1 yesterday and suprise suprise the settings were still correct.
I might leave it for a while - its just painful doing a proper free air cal on it. 12 hours engine off is not enough as I am reading about 0.8AFR richer that I am tuned for at the moment...
I've had my LC-1 for a couple years now with no issues. I also have their SSi-4 for 4 additional 0...5V inputs. I use one for a GM 3.3 bar and another for a GM IAT sensor in the UICP.
As far as calibration, just do it during coasting fuel cut. Why try to wait 12+ hours and risk still having exhaust gases present. Coasting fuel cut pumps fresh air right through in a second or so. I've done many calibrations this way just to test it out and every time it reads spot on.
Actually, my idle always was a little lean, like 15.0:1, but I always suspected I had a very slight leak at the downpipe due to the crappy RNR gasket I was using. I just replaced my exhaust with a QTP downpipe and DMH e-cutout with the stock cat/cat-back. That fixed the small leak, and now the wideband reads 14.7 at idle as it should and I don't even remember the last time I did a calibration.
Eric
As far as calibration, just do it during coasting fuel cut. Why try to wait 12+ hours and risk still having exhaust gases present. Coasting fuel cut pumps fresh air right through in a second or so. I've done many calibrations this way just to test it out and every time it reads spot on.
Actually, my idle always was a little lean, like 15.0:1, but I always suspected I had a very slight leak at the downpipe due to the crappy RNR gasket I was using. I just replaced my exhaust with a QTP downpipe and DMH e-cutout with the stock cat/cat-back. That fixed the small leak, and now the wideband reads 14.7 at idle as it should and I don't even remember the last time I did a calibration.
Eric
Do you have and XD-16 gauge? I just watch that and when it switches to %O2 and flashes 20.9 I know it's pure air. I wait another second or two before doing the calibration.
If you don't have the gauge and aren't logging, just let off the throttle from a higher RPM (in gear), wait a few seconds, and then calibrate. The injectors won't come back on until around 1500 RPM or so. I forgot the exact RPM though. Going downhill helps a bit and gives you more time, but you will be able to do it easily on a flat road once you are used to it.
Eric
If you don't have the gauge and aren't logging, just let off the throttle from a higher RPM (in gear), wait a few seconds, and then calibrate. The injectors won't come back on until around 1500 RPM or so. I forgot the exact RPM though. Going downhill helps a bit and gives you more time, but you will be able to do it easily on a flat road once you are used to it.
Eric
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From: Tri-Cities, WA // Portland, OR
IPW is the most straightforward way to monitor. I've used this method several times. Just need a long enough space (downhill best) to give enough time for the recal with the v1.1 firmware. Works like a champ.
..snip
As far as calibration, just do it during coasting fuel cut. Why try to wait 12+ hours and risk still having exhaust gases present. Coasting fuel cut pumps fresh air right through in a second or so. I've done many calibrations this way just to test it out and every time it reads spot on.
Eric
As far as calibration, just do it during coasting fuel cut. Why try to wait 12+ hours and risk still having exhaust gases present. Coasting fuel cut pumps fresh air right through in a second or so. I've done many calibrations this way just to test it out and every time it reads spot on.
Eric
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 9,486
Likes: 67
From: Melbourne, Australia
yeah did it tonight on the way home from work... it should be noted that high rpm doesn't actually work - so from about 2500 down to 1500
I am going to test it out tommorow morning with a pull
should be 11.8's ish...
I am going to test it out tommorow morning with a pull
should be 11.8's ish...