Is your O2 reporting STFT yet? Or is still stuck at .1008? If its stuck then the O2 sensor is bad. I have yet to see any problems with any of the 2150s so while I wont say its not, I will say its unlikely.

aaron

 

Hey Aaron,

Did you see my post after that one re: the AFR is coming up with new latency values? Here is what I'm using -

3
1.992
1.296
1.008
0.792
0.456
0.336

The AFR after 10 minutes was 12.9 and the STFT is showing .1008. When I blip the throttle it shows -9.9003. This is on my second front o2. I'm going to swap back to my original front o2 just in case.

So my question is the fact that these latencies are different what will it hurt? Is using just any old latency values going to screw something long term?

 

I realized that my "method" wasn't the best so I'm redoing the latency. Question is - should I just be going up 10%, 20%, etc until it idles from your original values Aaron? I went up 10% from your values, wouldn't idle, swapped to mine, idles good, so I'm going to start as low as possible and go up from there until I hear from you or my tuner.

Is there anyone who has posted when the injectors would see xxx voltage? Like when would the 4,7,9,16,18 values come into play? I read the 11 and 14 are at idle and when the car is running but the others?

Thanks for all the help!

 

You can change the latency if it works, but it shouldnt be needed to make it work. Thats what I am not understanding since the scaling is what should be changing the AFR (not that you havent explained just not able to understand it on my end). I saw the AFR had changed but not if the primary O2 was affecting trims. It should have a range of 25% either way. The "second" O2 is not contributing to the fuel trims apparently. What is the O2 voltage doing, is it moving at all (0v to 1.0v)? I am going to take a look at the map you sent me and see how its setup.

aaron

 

Oh crap, I just realized a long time ago I bought a rear o2 simulator (it was over 2 years ago) until you mentioned the "rear" o2. I wasn't aware the rear o2 contributed to this whole process, only the front. Should I take that out and rewire the rear o2 sensor?

 

Is it electronic or mechanical simulator? If it is mechanical (o2 defouler) it should not matter, if it is electronic that may be hampering something... There is a rear O2 patch out also...

 

It "was" electrical, I removed it just now and will relog again tomorrow. Weird...it's been there forever and has never caused a real problem with logging/dialing in new injectors. I'll give it a go again tomorrow morning. Thanks for the assistance.

I just enabled the rear o2 sim in V7...hopefully that works

 

the second O2 means you had 2 primaries and were switching back to the first one. I didnt mean the O2 on the other side of the cat.

 

Ah, gotcha...well I took it out and will have another chance to look at things today. Aaron I'm sending you another map and log that looks much better with higher AFR's. I still think it needs a little work but it's closer. Thanks for all the help!

 

Well I took a look and decided I am going to have to put my car on a MAF to see if it does the same thing. It looks right, just doesnt make sense why it doesnt want to idle.

The way you have the latency vs scaling is basically an offsetting condition.

You have lean in the scaling and fatten it back up with the latency, so it should work the other way and with lower scaling and less latency be where it needs to be. Not sure if there is something missing that I am not seeing but I will stare at the logs a little more and see what it looks like is going on. If I didnt know better I'd say your front O2 is dead. With no voltage log for the O2 it could just be its maxed the trim and is idling rich. When you make changes to the latency are you going in .024 steps? It is very sensitive and alot goes a long way.

Aaron

 

Thanks Aaron...I'm sending you one more thing to take a look at. I checked back over the last ROM's and a few things. The car won't stay running in open loop only, nor will it stay running with the front o2 disabled. The latencies that kept the car idling last night (and didn't work this morning *sigh*) were -

(scaling 1720)
4.992
3.504
1.512
1.032
0.744
0.624
0.336

These values did NOT work -

(scaling 1720)
4.992
3.504
1.512
0.816
0.672
0.552
0.336

(front o2 disabled, didn't idle, scaling 1720)
4.992
3.504
1.512
1.008
0.696
0.528
0.336

(this one was tried in open loop, didn't idle, scaling 1828)
6
3.912
1.8
1.032
0.744
0.624
0.336

The o2 feedback works when cruising around. I spent alot of time reading up on why trims log at .1008 and saw different stories, periph bits, rear o2 disabled, etc etc. I've tried changing the formulas to mrfred's newer formula -

0.1953125*x-25

but that only logs as a 0. I'm sending you a couple more logs Aaron, this time cruise logs, maybe it will help shed some light on this. The 11.7 and 14 latencies were as low as we could go to get the car to idle and even on those it doesn't catch itself when it starts up all the time. This morning it took 7 starts before the idle dipped on warm up and caught itself (by that time maybe it had started to warm up I guess) so it worked. Anyway, more details in the log files. My tuner has mentioned that there is something really obvious he's missing and he's getting frustrated because he just can't figure it out *sigh*

Thanks again!
Matt

 

FYI,

You are talking about it going lean but you are going the wrong way on the scaling. Scaling needs to go down numerically to richen not up. I'll look at the latest set of logs to see voltage on the O2 and STFT, not the LTFT low/mid/high. Those will show .1008 for numerous reasons like you outline. The live data STFT should bounce all the time if its working and not stick at .1008.

There are a few caveats to that-

Fuel trims maxed and it forces it to open loop
You set it to open loop
Front O2 sensor is dead

Looking at your scaling vs latency the car is going to be globally lean and thats the main issue. The only other thing that I can see being an issue when it idles at 13.0-13.5 is your plugs were already done. On E85 this isnt an issue (even on gas for the most part) but if they were already fouled out it wont matter the car just wont run right.

If it was in fact idling at 18.0 and --- on the wideband drop the scaling down to 1539 and see if it richens up to 14.0 or so. Do not change the latencies. Remember .024 latency change with this injectors is HUGE for the amount of change its going to make. DO NOT TOUCH THE LATENCIES, LOWER THE GLOBAL (scaling) ONLY. If what you are describing/reporting is correct, dropping the scaling should get the idle back to where it should be. I seem to be seeing alot of tail chasing, so lets do things one step at a time. I dont want to wire a MAF plug back in my car just to find out I was right all along

Aaron

 

Which latencies are you suggesting I stick with? The lowest set possible just so it idles (latency3 I'll call it )?

Don't go rewiring just yet Aaron...hehe.

Just a little bit of background.

I had 850's on a 35R. The clutch was slipping so I got the turbo upgraded, a rebuilt tranny, triple disk, and a Magnus V5 all done at the same time. I broke the clutch in and then ran the car on the same map as before, pump 35R at 21PSI. I logged it and it was running rich but no knock so I left it as it stood until I got the full blown and 2150's put in. I put in the full blown double pumper only hooking up the main pump and ordered the pressure switch from Buschur. Again, the car ran fine, ran richer so I'm guessing it's because my old walbro was on the way out. I checked my logs to make sure it wasn't knocking, it was just running rich as before. I also just checked over my old logs to make sure that on the 850's I was seeing fuel trims which I was.

Then I put in the 2150's and wired up the second pump (I have the boost source capped off until we get all the kinks worked out so it's never activated) and here we are.

Not sure if that helps or not but

 

Update...it was the map sensor on my car too *sigh* details below...

So last night my tuner suggested I solder back in my old pig tails and swap back in my 850's just to try it out and see if we could get trims. Again, we had issues. Tried lots of scaling and latencies...again, no go. Finally my tuner said it was the MAP or MAF, it had to be something like that as the 850's were perfect before. I have an OMNI 4 bar and this morning swapped in my stocker with my old stock 1 bar MAP sensor and sure as ****, viola, it recorded trims, idles great, afr's in the 14-15's with latency and scaled at 592 on e-85. I ordered the FIC plug and play harnesses which should be here in 2 days so we can go back to the 2150's.

Can't believe it was the OP's same issue and I didn't even "consider" it *sigh*

Aaron I can't thank you enough for spending so much time helping me out with this. I owe you. Looks like we all learned a valuable lesson re: 2150's and issues...check your damn MAP sensor. Weird thing is mine still logged boost, vacuum, everything just fine...how would you have known?!

 

You cant its just trial and error sometimes. When you said you were adjusting it and nothing happened that seemed really odd to me. The new thread that Tephra just put up on "Minimum IPW" might also have something to do with it.