Eric Lyublinsky

iTrader: (5)

Bottom line AWD car don't like to be shifted into 1st when rolling. If it can avoided even if your the best dam double clutcher on earth it should be. AWD trannys take alot more abuse then RWD or FWD. IMHO

koolade9

iTrader: (3)

there are only like 5 people who have posted here that have said something usefull.

and I'm not seeing many former dsm owners posting here...

roll this one around...6spd was standard issue in evo vIII... now remember the marketing and development that went into mcc sending the 8 overseas...like richening up our fuel maps to keep us from flash-frying pistons, a weaker clutch to keep our t-cases in one peice, giving us the wider recaros for our fat asses, not giving us ayc because we don't believe in 1500 mile maintenance, and...(drum roll)...a stronger tranny, to take our american drag racing abuse(no kids don't think this means your tranny was designed for 7200rpm launching)...

now back to the topic...

first, let's start with the 5spd vs. 6spd debate...DaWorstPlaya was exactly right, look at how much physicaly space is involved here, you can only pack so much in such a small casing. you pack in a 6th gear, and you must use thinner gears, thus a physically weaker tranny unless built with stronger materials...it's only common sense to understand that one. take a step back and look at the big picture. the evo's engine trans setup is mounted perpendicular to the rear driveshaft (another reason the tcase takes so much stress. and i'm still not sure why they chose that layout) now let's take the wrx as an example, the engine/tranny are all in line, and in that case they have a ton of room to make a very strong tranny, ehem...sti. although that doesn't explain their glass 5spd in the std wrx.

It's simple physics:

size of case=gear strength=tranny strength

take that equation, and raise or lower any part of that, and some other peice of the equation will have to give.

now as far as gearing, the wider the powerband, the less gears you need(i.e. ls1) a high revving, small powerband car, you benefit from the 6 spd.

now that we understand that, lets get into why one tranny "feels" better then another tranny. for all those that have rebuilt a tranny, you can sit down because you've already passed this class...

how a tranny feels is based on tolerances. I bet if you take that 6 spd that "feels" better, shim it very tight, and it would feel much worse then the 5spd, and really notchy, and it would require actual driving skill to pull off clean shifts. now I haven't pulled apart the 6spd. but I'd be willing to bet it's shimmed on the "loose" side of things because it makes it easier to shift, and when you're physically changing between gears more then in a 5 spd, you appreciate those silky smooth shifts... also, the actual design tolerances of the gears is very very tight... go drive your little brother's 5spd pos, and in 1st gear, give it throttle, and let off...feel that slight "clunk" of all the force changing directions in the drivetrain...it's more noticable in some cars more then others.... this is almost non-existant in the evo, it's so well designed it's sick.

now in japan, they can get away with the slightly weaker 6pd, because if you own a lancer evolution, you know how to drive, you don't grind gears, and you rev match...because you realize that your trans is the most complicated, and by far the most important part of any car...americans don't understand that.

we can compare the evo's to the dsms in this situation. the 1g trans is strong and notchy...but americans complained about it, so we got the 2g trans, which shifts much smoother, and was built with thinner gears.

now from an economical level... if it's true that the 6 spd is a "replace only" part, that would scare the living crap out of me... $4700 whoops(i checked on it too) so unless you're made of money, or you really know how to drive (all those that just agreed "yeah i know how to drive", 90% of you still don't belong in this category), the 5spd seems to be a much better option for you.


feel free to correct me

JF1GD2

okay, i'll correct you; the wrx transmission case is made from aluminum, and the gears, steel.

the physics of transmissions is much more sophisticated than can be written, to glance on a few of the major contributors are: gear TOOTH size, gear thickness, metal choice, metal strength (shot peening), angle of gear teeth, synchronizers, transmission fluid choice, clutch choice, flywheel choice, axle mounting and angle, center differential power distribution, including wheel choice, and tire grip (grippy tires are tough on AWD). those are only some of the physics that dictate how a transmission will behave and/or hold (or break) from power.

koolade9

iTrader: (3)

exactly. i guess i was being too general with that statement.

GPTourer

They (the Evo design team) didn't choose that layout, it was handed to them. IF the Evo skunworks got the chance (and the financial backing) to design an Evolution from a clean sheet of paper, who knows what they would have come up with. But with limited funding, and the necessity of having to build on the Mirage/Lancer platform dictated its transverse mounted ala FWD setup.

Has anyone seen a 5speed Evo tranny and a 6speed tranny outside of a car laying side by side to know for sure that they are the exact physical size and outer case exactly the same?

dIRTY sANCHEZ

hey let me know what so cal dealer let you test drive both 05' GSR & 05' MR.. I'm gonna be trading in my 04 STi soon for either a Black 05' GSR or a Graphite grey MR and i'de like to see the difference between the two. I don't like the Sti 6spd so if both EVO's are teflon coated then i'de probably go with the 5 spd.

evo542

good points koolade. I would choose a 5spd anyday over the 6spd

erikgj

iTrader: (2)

it is a Tremec T56.

Borg Warner is owned by Tremec, but the designs are still distinct.

GPTourer

How many cars does this affect, and from what model years? I checked a WS6 and a VR4 just a while ago. The WS6, which according to erikgj is a Tremec is upper right. The VR4 is most definitely a Getrag and it is bottom right.

I'm with you 100% on that one. Turn with me girls and boys to page 3-35 of your '03 Evolution manuals. There is a section on Downshifting that shows what the recommended speed is for certain conditions. "2nd to 1st" or any other gear to 1st is not shown on the chart.

WildRice

GPT..thank you for your useful insights on the 1st gear down shifts.. Dang.. here I have been cursing the gear box for my inability to read my owners manual. I agree the trans really balks at that practice. However, I have to scratch my head here though since there is a syncro on 1st which would seem unnecessary if you do not down shift into first while moving.

From my peresective:
I have always used 1st when I wanted max clutch braking and to keep revs up for a power out. To suit my driving style, the 6spd with its higher gearing in second will help (1.950 x 4.529 for the 5spd to 1.944 x 4.583 for the 6). But, I should probably change this habit as it is not really the way to drive AWD as it tends to break everything loose instead of just the tail.

Regarding the lower 5th. I would love to be able to drive in 35 mph zones in other than 4th like I must do now.

As for high speed acceleration. I will never get beyond 4th gear in the quarter with my car so no real advantage here. The .1 sec or more for an additional shift will be pretty much a wash not to mention that one less shift is one less thing to muff on down the strip.

Top speed. Well, I have been in cars designed to be driven at 150 and over and my Evo does not run with these big dogs. I find it at it's best at speeds under 130. the 5th gear in the 5 spd. is too tall in this area for other than cruising and the 6spd is better here. The 6 spd. would also be a better tran.s for acceleration over 110 or so but I very seldom drive at any of these more extreme speeds .

Bottom line, I would rather have an MR but oh well. I shall suffer through with my 03 and it's 5spd. by taking solace in the performance upgrades I can afford by not trading out.

AutoXer

iTrader: (1)

Then why do the 03' 5 speeds have tripple syncros on 1st gear?

GPTourer

I agree that double clutching and rev matching can make downshifting to first smoother and without grinding, but only for like parking situations - something around 10mph or less. To me, that is what the three synchros are for, so your 30K car doesn't grind and balk when just trying to manuever between speed bumps at the local strip mall. But, autocross is a different story - its the whole competition versus daily use compromise thing. Maybe you guys should look into getting dog cut cears and forgoing synchros all together. Would that help with downshifting easier, at the expense of daily comfort?

koolade9

iTrader: (3)

the hks evo trb02 has ralli-art dog box (arf!)... but i've never seen a price tag on that bad boy yet. magnus has been selling theirs for dsms for round $5k or so. quaiffe makes one for vw golfs for like $20k or something outrageous like that...

has anyone ever seen the price for the ralliart box?

MR-SilverEVO8

iTrader: (1)

I disagree, not all 6 speed MTs are equal. I have not driven the STi so I don't know about that one, but one of the things I did not like about my '03 EVO 8 was the 5 speed. For everyday driving it always seemed that it was turning too fast in 5th and 4th was too low. Also, I found it a little balky to shift at times. When I test drove the MR, the first thing I noticed was the superb feel and ratios of the 6 speed MT. For me there is no comparison between the 5 & 6 speed trannies. I find the 6 speed MT a true pleasure to drive. Also, that extra 100-200 rpm during cruising make a big difference in how the car feels.

At first I was skeptical about the 6 speed MT because I also have an '03 Maxima SE with the 6speed and HLSD. In that car the 6 speed is just a PITA. the ratios are long legged and the engine and the car are so f***ing quiet that you never know what gear you are in. I wish that car had an automatic.... Anyway, much to my surprise and delight, the MR's MT is a completely different animal. Personally, Iwould not trade it for the old 5 speed..... I don't know about the power capacity of the 6 speed or how well it would work in the track, but for my purposes and my driving style it rocks!

JF1GD2

wow, another convert. seeing a guy leave a wrx for an evo is no longer uncommon, but leaving an sti for an evo, wow.

dont interpret what i said as a bad thing (its just that very few subaru buyers are enlightened of the evo, or know how much better it is), you have made a sound choice. the evolution is a MUCH better car than the STi, the handling of the STi is incomparable to the greatness of the EVO

id personally get the 5 speed though, since parts are much more readily available, and well, the 5 speed is acutally made by mitsu and not outsourced...look how hard it is for 3000GT owners to fix their 6 MT's. i myself like having a product with parts that are cheap, plentiful, and easy to replace.

whereas, lower production products are presumably rarer, considerably more expensive, and there is less knowledge on how to replace/fix them because not many people have them. serious thing to ask yourself when buying.