Buschur Stg4 + Methanol (dynosheets)
O, I've read through this whole thread over the past couple days, and I don't think Ted or Razor are seeing each other's points, because quite frankly, you're both right, and even 94AWDcoupe helped prove Ted's point in trying to disprove it.
All Ted has been saying is that when used as a detonation deterrent a water/alchy mix will work just as well as alchy, which is completely true. Water doesn't burn, but it has a very high heat capacity, which will absorb loads of intake charge heat and fight off detonation. Alchy will do the same thing!
Razor is talking about alchy injection as a supplemental fuel source, much like the stillen 350Z supercharger kit that adds a 7th injector for adding more fuel to meet the demands of the added air volume. In Razor's case, he's injecting alchy instead of gas, which not only meets the added fueling demands of higher air flowrate, but it also raises the mean octane rating of the fuel in the cylinder and cools the intake charge, both fighing off detonation.
The problem with you guys is that you're arguing about two different uses for the alchy setup. As 94AWDcoupe said, if you injected 300cc at a 50/50 mix it would cool the intake charge and allow higher boost levels. But injecting 1000cc's at a 50/50 mix would prbably hurt performance b/c it's just too much water.
Bottom line, both water and alchy work in small volumes as a detonation deterrent, but only alchy works in large volumes as an added fuel source.
Can we all just get along?
- Steve
All Ted has been saying is that when used as a detonation deterrent a water/alchy mix will work just as well as alchy, which is completely true. Water doesn't burn, but it has a very high heat capacity, which will absorb loads of intake charge heat and fight off detonation. Alchy will do the same thing!
Razor is talking about alchy injection as a supplemental fuel source, much like the stillen 350Z supercharger kit that adds a 7th injector for adding more fuel to meet the demands of the added air volume. In Razor's case, he's injecting alchy instead of gas, which not only meets the added fueling demands of higher air flowrate, but it also raises the mean octane rating of the fuel in the cylinder and cools the intake charge, both fighing off detonation.
The problem with you guys is that you're arguing about two different uses for the alchy setup. As 94AWDcoupe said, if you injected 300cc at a 50/50 mix it would cool the intake charge and allow higher boost levels. But injecting 1000cc's at a 50/50 mix would prbably hurt performance b/c it's just too much water.
Bottom line, both water and alchy work in small volumes as a detonation deterrent, but only alchy works in large volumes as an added fuel source.
Can we all just get along?
- Steve
Originally Posted by Razor
Why not do 300cc at 100% alky to cool the charge and allow higher boost levels 
This is my point
This is my point
Water can absorb ~66.5% more heat than methanol and 100% more than gasoline. At low injection volumes, where the heat from the gasoline is still the limiting factor, the volume may not be enough to allow methanol to affect the octane by a great margin. At this point, having some water in the injection mix should provide a greater cooling ability. I suspect the research that makes this claim does so from experiences with injecting much smaller volumes that what Julio is used to doing. After all, when he mentioned 1000cc/m, I don't think I was the only one who found that number surprising.
If we move up to higher injection volumes, methanol begins to replace a large part of gasoline as the primary fuel. The high percentage of methanol creates a significant impact on the overall octane rating. At this point, as Superhatch noted, the cooling ability of water becomes less valuable. It seems to make sense.
If there is any truth to this theory, it would seem to indicate a trend, whereby the larger the volume of the injection, the less significant water becomes.
Bingo. You got it now.
At low volumes of injection, having water aboard is more effective at making power. At this point the water does the best job at cooling the cylinders down, by absorbing heat.
Shame on julio for not knowing this. he hasn't played with water , he went straight to alky.
At low volumes of injection, having water aboard is more effective at making power. At this point the water does the best job at cooling the cylinders down, by absorbing heat.
Shame on julio for not knowing this. he hasn't played with water , he went straight to alky.
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Originally Posted by SuperHatch
water is cheaper than alchy???
Actually Evian per gallon is way more expensive.. thats what I use in my radiator.. nothing but the best
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Originally Posted by 94AWDcoupe
Bingo. You got it now.
At low volumes of injection, having water aboard is more effective at making power. At this point the water does the best job at cooling the cylinders down, by absorbing heat.
Shame on julio for not knowing this. he hasn't played with water , he went straight to alky.
At low volumes of injection, having water aboard is more effective at making power. At this point the water does the best job at cooling the cylinders down, by absorbing heat.
Shame on julio for not knowing this. he hasn't played with water , he went straight to alky.
How bout hydrogen peroxide mixed with alcohol? That way it can heal your motor's ailments
BTW..whats low volumes
Hey I need a ride in that car.. see what all the talk is about.. I'll bring my Depends diaper with me for the just in case
Hmmmm, better save that Evian for drinking and use distilled in the radiator...
Concentrated hydrogen peroxide can be very useful, especially when mixed with hydrazine.**
**Note: This is ONLY a (poor) joke!
Concentrated hydrogen peroxide can be very useful, especially when mixed with hydrazine.**
**Note: This is ONLY a (poor) joke!
Last edited by Ted B; Mar 9, 2005 at 04:57 PM.
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I had a 85 GLH Omni ran mid 13s with no intercooler , 91 Spirit R/T Ran low 13s with intercooler, Lotus head was nice but warped from poor factory forgings/molds, oil pump snapped off fell in to oil pan while driving home from long weekend in NJ, 93 Typhoon; left so hard my seat broke, sold it 7 years later for what i payed for it ,87 GN 12s in factory trim, 11s with minor mods, Got to love the boost fed babies. I'm looking for a 89' TTA.
