20G with Alky?
Sep 3, 2005, 09:57 AM
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20G with Alky?
Anyone knows how much boost I can run on the 20G if I use alky? Perhaps 30PSI? Also, will I need to upgrade the engine internals? Maybe a set of Ross forged pistons, Eagle rods, Tomei head gasket and ARP head studs just to keep things safe? Won't want to spend more than what's necessary 
Sep 3, 2005, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by NOLIMITMOTORS
i see people running 30 psi on gt35r's with stock internals, i doubt you "ned" a built motor with a 20g.
Btw, changing the rods, bearings and pistons (stock bore) can be done with the engine still in the car right?
Sep 3, 2005, 10:21 PM
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People have stated it a million times, I don't see any amazing power with a turbo based off the stock hot side, just too restrictive and any increase in power or boost will probably be met with detonation very similar compaired to trying to make power with a stock cat, back pressure and then detonation.
David HAS make more power with this 20G and it does make more power. He ran a 120MPH trap on his fully modded Evo RS, not bad but on race gas but then again at 23PSI so who knows you may be able to squeeze out a 120MPH trap on a lesser modded Evo.
FYI STock 16G's have hit 116-118MPH on race gas. Curt Brown SOMEHOW hit 124 and beat a GT35R in the right lane
I always liked switching out the stock manifold and hotside to a T3 setup with an External gate, very efficient.
David HAS make more power with this 20G and it does make more power. He ran a 120MPH trap on his fully modded Evo RS, not bad but on race gas but then again at 23PSI so who knows you may be able to squeeze out a 120MPH trap on a lesser modded Evo.
FYI STock 16G's have hit 116-118MPH on race gas. Curt Brown SOMEHOW hit 124 and beat a GT35R in the right lane
I always liked switching out the stock manifold and hotside to a T3 setup with an External gate, very efficient.
Sep 4, 2005, 08:34 AM
#5
Originally Posted by NOLIMITMOTORS
i see people running 30 psi on gt35r's with stock internals, i doubt you "ned" a built motor with a 20g.
Sep 4, 2005, 08:42 AM
#6
Head studs are HIGHLY recommended! I am also curious about boost levels with alky and 20g!
EvlEvo8- What exactly are you trying to say about the 20g? Why do you think detonation will occur with upgraded turbos and stock hotsides? Where are you getting your info?
EvlEvo8- What exactly are you trying to say about the 20g? Why do you think detonation will occur with upgraded turbos and stock hotsides? Where are you getting your info?
Sep 4, 2005, 01:15 PM
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Pretty much any stock turbo uphgrade looking to make massive gains will run into inefficient hotside that will add to detonation. Look at the White rabbit as one example. It can't even hold that much past STOCK boost, it certainly adds a little in the mid range but is on par with TME turbo and makes no real power gains. A Lot of the issues are the use of an internal gate, not being able to hold the boost properly and not being as efficient as an external gate. Back in my DSM days you would be NUTS to try to run a 20G without an external gate, but times they are a changing.
If you look at these Evo's maing well over 400WHP on pump gas they all have one thing in common, they all switch out the stock housing and use a T3 manifold design, it is NOT twin scroll but allows the proper flow, having a free flow exhaust is very important and if it gets back up, you will get detonation.
Again I am no expert just posting my little comment, the best words I have heard for a 20G are by the maker himself, listen to him more then ME
Original thread https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ht=20G+Buschur
If you look at these Evo's maing well over 400WHP on pump gas they all have one thing in common, they all switch out the stock housing and use a T3 manifold design, it is NOT twin scroll but allows the proper flow, having a free flow exhaust is very important and if it gets back up, you will get detonation.
Again I am no expert just posting my little comment, the best words I have heard for a 20G are by the maker himself, listen to him more then ME
Originally Posted by David Buschur
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree there isn't enough information our there to say which is better our 20G or the WR. I have dyno'd my personal car on our 20G and dyno's a few WR's. I have opinions but since it will turn this thread into a huge SH IT fest i am going leave them out. I am anxiously waiting for customer results on our 20G. I think that is going to sum things up better than me talking about my own product.
As for the TD05H turbine wheel. I agree it is small, I do not agree that it is so small that anyone using it is ripping people off, as suggested by someone.
We have been using the TD05H turbine wheel forever. The key to making the car make more power is clipping the wheel. The proof is in the numbers, 10.72 at 132 mph is what we have run on one of DSM 20G's. My RS has run 11.30 at 120 mph at only 22-23 psi of boost. The car is down for a t-case repair now and when it is fixed you can expect faster times and some real dyno data.
Also, the 20G can be done for $800, that would be using your stock turbine housing. With the MR's out there and other 2005 turbos many already have the 10.5 turbine housing. Want faster spool up? Keep that 9.8 housing, it will limit the top end a little bit.
The 3071, just installed on on our new kit on an EVO this week. On straight 93 octane with a "mix match" of parts on this particular car (not all our stuff) the car made 320 whp on our AWD MD at 22 psi. This is on par with what my RS made on the 20G, but my RS has quite a few more parts on it and race gas. With that, I would say the 3071 is a better turbo. The spool up even on the dyno was exceptional, making 20 psi by 4,000 rpm. Very nice spool up.
Looking at the 3071 (I haven't taken the time to physically measure it) the compressor wheel inlet appears to be the same size as the 20G compressor. The exducer is probably much larger, but inducer is very close. The turbine wheel on the 3071 is much larger, probably half again as big.
Our 3071 turbo kit, for comparison sakes, comes with:
Cast manifold, ceramic coated
BB GT series turbo (3071, 3076 or GR35R)
Tial 44 mm external wastegate
Turbine housing with external wastegate port built in.
SS 02 housing
The 02 housing, wastegate and wastegate dump tube are all fastened with v-band clamps, the ultimate in fastening for turbo kits
Oil feed and return lines
New engine fan
The kit is complete, same kit that is on our Black EVO now that (GT35R) that ran 10.3 at 141 mph. VERY clean, fits even with the largest radiators available with no clearance issues
AND does not require modifying, covering or replacing the stock upper radiator hose.
This kit is $2995.
Big difference in price between the 20G and the turbo kits, but also a big difference in performance and what you are getting.
My choice on my personal car is the 20G. I love the turbo and the performance of the car. I see the car running in the 10's on race gas with stock like appearance and spool up.
For some guys another issue is replacement parts, repairs and the DSM/EVO Shootout.
First, replacement parts/repairs the 20g parts are all available directly from Mitsubishi. In other words if you need a gasket, oil line, water line or any other turbo part and you are broke down on the side of the road Mitsubishi is going to have it. Turbo fails you can throw on a stock unit to hold you over while it is out being fixed or whatever.
In the case of the turbo kits, ours included, if something fails you are stuck waiting on gaskets, oil lines, fittings etc. If you buy a turbo kit with a header and it breaks you are stuck waiting on the repair or replacement of that too. Just something to consider.
The last issue is the DSM/EVO Shootout. The shootout is attended by a huge number of people. Some of which build their cars around this one events rules for the entire year. Many guys only race this one time each year. The stock appearing EVO class at the shootout does not allow for a turbo kit but does allow for a stock appearing stock turbo. The class was really big this year, people were very excited about it. With the 20G's and WR's it made for some interesting racing. The winner was my Kevin Lawson in my RS running a best of 11.6 at 118.9 mph.
Anyway, I hope I came across as just putting information out there. Pricing, pros and cons of each.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
I agree there isn't enough information our there to say which is better our 20G or the WR. I have dyno'd my personal car on our 20G and dyno's a few WR's. I have opinions but since it will turn this thread into a huge SH IT fest i am going leave them out. I am anxiously waiting for customer results on our 20G. I think that is going to sum things up better than me talking about my own product.
As for the TD05H turbine wheel. I agree it is small, I do not agree that it is so small that anyone using it is ripping people off, as suggested by someone.
We have been using the TD05H turbine wheel forever. The key to making the car make more power is clipping the wheel. The proof is in the numbers, 10.72 at 132 mph is what we have run on one of DSM 20G's. My RS has run 11.30 at 120 mph at only 22-23 psi of boost. The car is down for a t-case repair now and when it is fixed you can expect faster times and some real dyno data.
Also, the 20G can be done for $800, that would be using your stock turbine housing. With the MR's out there and other 2005 turbos many already have the 10.5 turbine housing. Want faster spool up? Keep that 9.8 housing, it will limit the top end a little bit.
The 3071, just installed on on our new kit on an EVO this week. On straight 93 octane with a "mix match" of parts on this particular car (not all our stuff) the car made 320 whp on our AWD MD at 22 psi. This is on par with what my RS made on the 20G, but my RS has quite a few more parts on it and race gas. With that, I would say the 3071 is a better turbo. The spool up even on the dyno was exceptional, making 20 psi by 4,000 rpm. Very nice spool up.
Looking at the 3071 (I haven't taken the time to physically measure it) the compressor wheel inlet appears to be the same size as the 20G compressor. The exducer is probably much larger, but inducer is very close. The turbine wheel on the 3071 is much larger, probably half again as big.
Our 3071 turbo kit, for comparison sakes, comes with:
Cast manifold, ceramic coated
BB GT series turbo (3071, 3076 or GR35R)
Tial 44 mm external wastegate
Turbine housing with external wastegate port built in.
SS 02 housing
The 02 housing, wastegate and wastegate dump tube are all fastened with v-band clamps, the ultimate in fastening for turbo kits
Oil feed and return lines
New engine fan
The kit is complete, same kit that is on our Black EVO now that (GT35R) that ran 10.3 at 141 mph. VERY clean, fits even with the largest radiators available with no clearance issues
AND does not require modifying, covering or replacing the stock upper radiator hose.
This kit is $2995.
Big difference in price between the 20G and the turbo kits, but also a big difference in performance and what you are getting.
My choice on my personal car is the 20G. I love the turbo and the performance of the car. I see the car running in the 10's on race gas with stock like appearance and spool up.
For some guys another issue is replacement parts, repairs and the DSM/EVO Shootout.
First, replacement parts/repairs the 20g parts are all available directly from Mitsubishi. In other words if you need a gasket, oil line, water line or any other turbo part and you are broke down on the side of the road Mitsubishi is going to have it. Turbo fails you can throw on a stock unit to hold you over while it is out being fixed or whatever.
In the case of the turbo kits, ours included, if something fails you are stuck waiting on gaskets, oil lines, fittings etc. If you buy a turbo kit with a header and it breaks you are stuck waiting on the repair or replacement of that too. Just something to consider.
The last issue is the DSM/EVO Shootout. The shootout is attended by a huge number of people. Some of which build their cars around this one events rules for the entire year. Many guys only race this one time each year. The stock appearing EVO class at the shootout does not allow for a turbo kit but does allow for a stock appearing stock turbo. The class was really big this year, people were very excited about it. With the 20G's and WR's it made for some interesting racing. The winner was my Kevin Lawson in my RS running a best of 11.6 at 118.9 mph.
Anyway, I hope I came across as just putting information out there. Pricing, pros and cons of each.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Original thread https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ht=20G+Buschur
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Sep 4, 2005, 01:18 PM
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From what I understand about these GT series turbos.
In terms of Size.....GT3071R<50Trim<Gt3076R
All should make over 400WHP on a dynojet, I bet the 50Trim would Edge out the 71R on race gas as it has made 500WHP which is on par with a 76R so I am conficdent that any of these turbos would be a great choice.
In terms of Size.....GT3071R<50Trim<Gt3076R
All should make over 400WHP on a dynojet, I bet the 50Trim would Edge out the 71R on race gas as it has made 500WHP which is on par with a 76R so I am conficdent that any of these turbos would be a great choice.
Sep 4, 2005, 01:26 PM
#9
Originally Posted by LordEvoIX
Anyone knows how much boost I can run on the 20G if I use alky? Perhaps 30PSI? Also, will I need to upgrade the engine internals? Maybe a set of Ross forged pistons, Eagle rods, Tomei head gasket and ARP head studs just to keep things safe? Won't want to spend more than what's necessary
You should be abel to do with no problems as long as everything is installed correctly and the tune is good. I will be bolting my 20G on tuesday and dyno on wed.
Sep 4, 2005, 02:16 PM
#10
Originally Posted by EvlEvo8
Pretty much any stock turbo uphgrade looking to make massive gains will run into inefficient hotside that will add to detonation...A Lot of the issues are the use of an internal gate, not being able to hold the boost properly...If you look at these Evo's maing well over 400WHP on pump gas they all have one thing in common, they all switch out the stock housing and use a T3 manifold design, it is NOT twin scroll but allows the proper flow, having a free flow exhaust is very important and if it gets back up, you will get detonation.
What you say is technically true about the hotside, but being that the 10.5 cm2 hotside flows well enough to use HKS 280s timed to a seemingly ridiculous tight LSA of 106 deg while displaying no ill-effects from reversion, it seems evident enough that the 20G wouldn't flow so much air that the hotside becomes a restriction. This is a case where theoretically it's possible, but in actuality it isn't a problem.
Regarding the internal wastegate, it doesn't seem to pose much of a problem because holding boost with the factory turbo (or variants thereof) doesn't equate to more power. Once you've exceeded the compressor capacity, higher pressure is negated by higher air temps, and the results (as demonstrated by one person's MAF data recently) do not equate to greater power. Want more power? Get a larger turbo that runs more efficiently at the required rpm.
As far as the split scroll exhaust design, it seems to exhibit better spool characteristics while not giving up much of anything in the way of peak hp (at least not at the levels of concern for most people here). We've seen some very impressive numbers posted using larger turbos with T3/Split adaptors. Furthermore, too much 'free flow' between the exhaust port and the turbine reduces exhaust velocity, and must be considered differently than what happens after the turbine (which should be entirely 'free flow' ).
Sep 4, 2005, 02:22 PM
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Dave has gotten a 120MPH trap out of this turbo on a fully built Evo with race gas.
Old Style 20G's on DSM's have hit high tens at around 127MPH.
What do you believe the difference is ? 120MPH Vs. 127MPH is over 100WHP difference easilly.
Old Style 20G's on DSM's have hit high tens at around 127MPH.
What do you believe the difference is ? 120MPH Vs. 127MPH is over 100WHP difference easilly.
Sep 4, 2005, 02:23 PM
#12
I want to upgrade my turbo, but I'm just not sure which one I want. I was thinking 20g and keeping my 9.8 hotside for better spool, although I love top-end power. I can't wait for some dyno results. It will be a tough choice because I don't have a ton of money and I want to get a bigger intercooler, injectors, etc.........
Sep 4, 2005, 05:31 PM
#13
Originally Posted by EvlEvo8
What do you believe the difference is ? 120MPH Vs. 127MPH is over 100WHP difference easilly.
Sep 5, 2005, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by badlooser
You should be abel to do with no problems as long as everything is installed correctly and the tune is good. I will be bolting my 20G on tuesday and dyno on wed.
Sep 5, 2005, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ted B
One person here has gone 124mph on the stock turbo 9.8cm2 housing. It's of little difference however as none of these trap speeds mean diddly squat unless weight of the vehicle is factored into the equation.
Good Point, what do you suppose Curt Browns Car weighed?
Hey guys, instead of buying a turbo, just cut 1000 pounds off your car for a realized similar 100WHP gain