2.3l + what turbo?
We all know that his goals are to have a quick on track car, not a drag car, we all know that. What you fail to realize is that 30R's seem to be ticket for road racing, because they can provide 20psi+ all the way to redline, which is far more beneficial than having full boost below 3500rpms, where the tach will never be while on a track(if you can shift....). Yes if he runs 20 dropping to 17 it will be fine, but he doesnt want to do that, he wants it to make more power than that, and the only way to do it is to go to a larger snail, that can provide 20-23ish psi at close to 8 grand or so.
High 1.20's at summit point isn't anything spectacular, I'm about 3 seconds off that and if my car makes 100 to the wheels id be surprised
Scorke
p.s. who says 17 psi is plenty? If it was, he wouldnt be in the market for an aftermarket turbo, now would he?
High 1.20's at summit point isn't anything spectacular, I'm about 3 seconds off that and if my car makes 100 to the wheels id be surprised
Scorke
p.s. who says 17 psi is plenty? If it was, he wouldnt be in the market for an aftermarket turbo, now would he?
Last edited by scorke; Mar 24, 2006 at 12:26 PM.
Originally Posted by scorke
1.20's at summit point isn't anything spectacular, I'm about 3 seconds off that and if my car makes 100 to the wheels id be surprised
Scorke
p.s. who says 17 psi is plenty? If it was, he wouldnt be in the market for an aftermarket turbo, now would he?
Anything under 1:25 on summit with street tires is fast. Of course we are talking about M3, EVOs, STIs and race prepped Spec Miata, spec E30 which will just fly on turns 4 through 7.
Your Miata is nimble around the turns and it’s known to be king on the track.
With him running 20 psi (stock configuration) he will run 93 octane all day very safe and ton of power.
He will have sweet 350 WHP that will allow him to hit under 1:20s on summit and have a great smile on his face.
Yes I will admit, I am wrong if he will run over 20~21 psi on TME with 2.3.. If he wants to run more then yes I do agree on a 3071 or whatever he likes and of course at that point race gas and fat wallet.
My view is 20 psi max dropping to 17~18 with nice 350 WHP and alot alot of torq.
Finally, we agree haha. RA-1's are dot legal, but R-compounds in my book, so neither slicks nor street tires really, this is in the Miata, it isn't just race prepped its raced, I run most of the NNJR region SCCA events, I just happened to run a couple at summit point with MARRS for fun and some experience.
Scorke
Scorke
Originally Posted by scorke
Finally, we agree haha. RA-1's are dot legal, but R-compounds in my book, so neither slicks nor street tires really, this is in the Miata, it isn't just race prepped its raced, I run most of the NNJR region SCCA events, I just happened to run a couple at summit point with MARRS for fun and some experience.
Scorke
Scorke
I mean yaaaa if he is going to up the boost to over 21psi on TME and EVO9 turbo then he will toast that turbo in no time. I can’t argue on that and at that level of boost he needs a bigger turbo.
However, a nice smooth 20 psi and a small drop will be sweet. There is no replacement for displacement....
Some thoughts:
1.) I'd really like to see some proof that race gas runs hotter on an identical tune, Az3ar. And then I'd like to see the tune.
Higher octane gas resists detonation better than lower octane gas and burns slower than lower octane gas. Let's take your average 93 octane street tune, for example. This works well when driving your car around the street ... a few highway pulls, stop-light romps, etc. The engine always has time to cool off again. Take that same tune and put it on a race track, and now you're looking at significantly higher operating temps, which will bring your everyday 93 octane fuel much closer to pre-ignition. I highly doubt that running 100+ octane gas will significantly increase your operating temps in these conditions. However, because the 100+ Octane burns slower and is more resistant to pre-ignition, your car should be much less likely to start knocking and self-destructing. Somewhat conservative AFR's (11:1 to 11.5:1) will also help towards avoiding knock.
2.) A stock 16g (TD05HR-16G6), running a stockish boost profile (19psi dropping to 16 by an assumed 7500rpm redline) will be almost off the compressor map at redline and very close to the surge line upon spoolup. Running a not unusual 22 psi dropping to 18 psi by redline would put that turbo right off the compressor map at redline and still very close to the surge line on spoolup. Again, given the limitations imposed by the stock gearing, this is really not a situation you'd want to be in. IMO a 3076 or similar sized turbo on a 2.3l should give you a torque curve that mimicks the stock curve (albeit at a significantly higher number), which in turn will allow you to maximize your gearing.
Also, if you're going to test the car at VIR, nrcooled, I'd try running a tune that will allow for good initial boost (let's say 21psi to try to keep your snail under 120,000rpm) and, starting at 5000rpm, let it fall off to wastegate pressure (~13psi) by redline. So your boost should look something like this:
RPM -- PSI
-------------
3000 = 21
3500 = 21
4000 = 21
4500 = 21
5000 = 19
5500 = 17
6000 = 16
6500 = 15
7000 = 14
7500 = 13
The theory behind this would be to have enough boost to push your engine - i.e. build up enough pressure in the combustion chamber to make sure it can handle it, and still allow for runs to redline without beating your stock turbo to death while doing it.
l8r)
1.) I'd really like to see some proof that race gas runs hotter on an identical tune, Az3ar. And then I'd like to see the tune.
Higher octane gas resists detonation better than lower octane gas and burns slower than lower octane gas. Let's take your average 93 octane street tune, for example. This works well when driving your car around the street ... a few highway pulls, stop-light romps, etc. The engine always has time to cool off again. Take that same tune and put it on a race track, and now you're looking at significantly higher operating temps, which will bring your everyday 93 octane fuel much closer to pre-ignition. I highly doubt that running 100+ octane gas will significantly increase your operating temps in these conditions. However, because the 100+ Octane burns slower and is more resistant to pre-ignition, your car should be much less likely to start knocking and self-destructing. Somewhat conservative AFR's (11:1 to 11.5:1) will also help towards avoiding knock.
2.) A stock 16g (TD05HR-16G6), running a stockish boost profile (19psi dropping to 16 by an assumed 7500rpm redline) will be almost off the compressor map at redline and very close to the surge line upon spoolup. Running a not unusual 22 psi dropping to 18 psi by redline would put that turbo right off the compressor map at redline and still very close to the surge line on spoolup. Again, given the limitations imposed by the stock gearing, this is really not a situation you'd want to be in. IMO a 3076 or similar sized turbo on a 2.3l should give you a torque curve that mimicks the stock curve (albeit at a significantly higher number), which in turn will allow you to maximize your gearing.
Also, if you're going to test the car at VIR, nrcooled, I'd try running a tune that will allow for good initial boost (let's say 21psi to try to keep your snail under 120,000rpm) and, starting at 5000rpm, let it fall off to wastegate pressure (~13psi) by redline. So your boost should look something like this:
RPM -- PSI
-------------
3000 = 21
3500 = 21
4000 = 21
4500 = 21
5000 = 19
5500 = 17
6000 = 16
6500 = 15
7000 = 14
7500 = 13
The theory behind this would be to have enough boost to push your engine - i.e. build up enough pressure in the combustion chamber to make sure it can handle it, and still allow for runs to redline without beating your stock turbo to death while doing it.
l8r)
If you don't want to run a race gas or alcohol, I would stay away from any gt series turbo especially for road racing. You will make power at low boost (20psi) but not what you will be expecting. Gt series gives what you want on high boost in my opinion. If I am gonna go through lag then I would expect a lot of pull from the turbo and that starts to happen on higher boost 25-26psi. Instead of going through stock turbo, I would get 20g on Evo9 turbo. Philly Evo is running the exact same turbo on his 2.3l engine. I don't have a flow chart for it but I am talking from what Buschur experienced and they were very happy with it. More top end than stock turbo and spool is nice as well with no surging.
why would you want to limit yourself to a certain HP figure? you can run 25-26psi just as safely on a 30r as you can 21psi on a stock turbo, with STILL less heat going into the intake.
power is faster, all else being equal. there will be ZERO lag between shifts with a 30r on a stroker.
power is faster, all else being equal. there will be ZERO lag between shifts with a 30r on a stroker.
Originally Posted by Ludikraut
Some thoughts:
1.) I'd really like to see some proof that race gas runs hotter on an identical tune, Az3ar. And then I'd like to see the tune.
Higher octane gas resists detonation better than lower octane gas and burns slower than lower octane gas. Let's take your average 93 octane street tune, for example. This works well when driving your car around the street ... a few highway pulls, stop-light romps, etc. The engine always has time to cool off again. Take that same tune and put it on a race track, and now you're looking at significantly higher operating temps, which will bring your everyday 93 octane fuel much closer to pre-ignition. I highly doubt that running 100+ octane gas will significantly increase your operating temps in these conditions. However, because the 100+ Octane burns slower and is more resistant to pre-ignition, your car should be much less likely to start knocking and self-destructing. Somewhat conservative AFR's (11:1 to 11.5:1) will also help towards avoiding knock.
2.) A stock 16g (TD05HR-16G6), running a stockish boost profile (19psi dropping to 16 by an assumed 7500rpm redline) will be almost off the compressor map at redline and very close to the surge line upon spoolup. Running a not unusual 22 psi dropping to 18 psi by redline would put that turbo right off the compressor map at redline and still very close to the surge line on spoolup. Again, given the limitations imposed by the stock gearing, this is really not a situation you'd want to be in. IMO a 3076 or similar sized turbo on a 2.3l should give you a torque curve that mimicks the stock curve (albeit at a significantly higher number), which in turn will allow you to maximize your gearing.
Also, if you're going to test the car at VIR, nrcooled, I'd try running a tune that will allow for good initial boost (let's say 21psi to try to keep your snail under 120,000rpm) and, starting at 5000rpm, let it fall off to wastegate pressure (~13psi) by redline. So your boost should look something like this:
RPM -- PSI
-------------
3000 = 21
3500 = 21
4000 = 21
4500 = 21
5000 = 19
5500 = 17
6000 = 16
6500 = 15
7000 = 14
7500 = 13
The theory behind this would be to have enough boost to push your engine - i.e. build up enough pressure in the combustion chamber to make sure it can handle it, and still allow for runs to redline without beating your stock turbo to death while doing it.
l8r)
1.) I'd really like to see some proof that race gas runs hotter on an identical tune, Az3ar. And then I'd like to see the tune.
Higher octane gas resists detonation better than lower octane gas and burns slower than lower octane gas. Let's take your average 93 octane street tune, for example. This works well when driving your car around the street ... a few highway pulls, stop-light romps, etc. The engine always has time to cool off again. Take that same tune and put it on a race track, and now you're looking at significantly higher operating temps, which will bring your everyday 93 octane fuel much closer to pre-ignition. I highly doubt that running 100+ octane gas will significantly increase your operating temps in these conditions. However, because the 100+ Octane burns slower and is more resistant to pre-ignition, your car should be much less likely to start knocking and self-destructing. Somewhat conservative AFR's (11:1 to 11.5:1) will also help towards avoiding knock.
2.) A stock 16g (TD05HR-16G6), running a stockish boost profile (19psi dropping to 16 by an assumed 7500rpm redline) will be almost off the compressor map at redline and very close to the surge line upon spoolup. Running a not unusual 22 psi dropping to 18 psi by redline would put that turbo right off the compressor map at redline and still very close to the surge line on spoolup. Again, given the limitations imposed by the stock gearing, this is really not a situation you'd want to be in. IMO a 3076 or similar sized turbo on a 2.3l should give you a torque curve that mimicks the stock curve (albeit at a significantly higher number), which in turn will allow you to maximize your gearing.
Also, if you're going to test the car at VIR, nrcooled, I'd try running a tune that will allow for good initial boost (let's say 21psi to try to keep your snail under 120,000rpm) and, starting at 5000rpm, let it fall off to wastegate pressure (~13psi) by redline. So your boost should look something like this:
RPM -- PSI
-------------
3000 = 21
3500 = 21
4000 = 21
4500 = 21
5000 = 19
5500 = 17
6000 = 16
6500 = 15
7000 = 14
7500 = 13
The theory behind this would be to have enough boost to push your engine - i.e. build up enough pressure in the combustion chamber to make sure it can handle it, and still allow for runs to redline without beating your stock turbo to death while doing it.
l8r)
very good points. I am trying to find out why I said that race gas burns hotter. I remember that a tuner or perhaps my research led me to that some time ago. I have been trying to remember who or where I found that info but I could not until now.
Octane ratings measure a gasoline’s ability to resist engine knock, a rattling or pinging sound that results from premature ignition of the compressed fuel-air mixture in one or more cylinders. However, when it ignites I believe it ignites hotter than pump.
I could swear that I found that info some where but I can’t remember.
still searching
You got it backwards, Az3ar, detonation is what causes knock. Here's a great article on the subject(s): http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articl...ne/Detonation/
Higher octane gas burns slower and is more resistant to self-ignition, which makes it more resistant to detonation and therefore helps to reduce knock. Being more resistant to self-ignition also means that higher octane gas is less prone to pre-ignition.
l8r)
Higher octane gas burns slower and is more resistant to self-ignition, which makes it more resistant to detonation and therefore helps to reduce knock. Being more resistant to self-ignition also means that higher octane gas is less prone to pre-ignition.
l8r)
Last edited by Ludikraut; Mar 24, 2006 at 02:32 PM. Reason: clarification
I now have to find a way to control my boost that precisely. I have been on a quest my entire turbo life to maintain boost and now I actually want taper. 
Anyway, after everyone's advice and speaking with my builder I am going to hold off on the June event and give me more time to log everything with the car to see exactly where it at and how it reacts. After that I will be taking it to the track to get a feel for it with an upgraded turbo. My builder said that the temps will just be too high at the time of year and it will put tons of stress on an already overworked turbo and slowly cook the engine (even with heavy weight oil and a huge FMIC)
I am still looking into the 30 series as it seems to be a very logical choice for good power, good response and near stock spool.
Anyway, after everyone's advice and speaking with my builder I am going to hold off on the June event and give me more time to log everything with the car to see exactly where it at and how it reacts. After that I will be taking it to the track to get a feel for it with an upgraded turbo. My builder said that the temps will just be too high at the time of year and it will put tons of stress on an already overworked turbo and slowly cook the engine (even with heavy weight oil and a huge FMIC)
I am still looking into the 30 series as it seems to be a very logical choice for good power, good response and near stock spool.
Originally Posted by Ludikraut
You got it backwards, Az3ar, detonation is what causes knock. Here's a great article on the subject(s): http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articl...ne/Detonation/
Higher octane gas burns slower and is more resistant to self-ignition, which makes it more resistant to detonation and therefore helps to reduce knock. Being more resistant to self-ignition also means that higher octane gas is less prone to pre-ignition.
l8r)
Higher octane gas burns slower and is more resistant to self-ignition, which makes it more resistant to detonation and therefore helps to reduce knock. Being more resistant to self-ignition also means that higher octane gas is less prone to pre-ignition.
l8r)
hmmm I got my info which is knock then detonation of a book I had. I will scan it later on or show you some links...
off working on the BMW...
Later
A couple of poeple hinted at it, but I'd like to reiterate the benefits of going to a larger hotside on strokers. Strokers will move 15-20% more air at the same boost level, which most poeple know, but remember that you also have to get rid of that extra airflow as well 
I would rather use the extra displacement for it's extra airflow (power) than for it's better spool, so I increase the hotside size to keep boost threshold/lag within my tolerance and still maximize airflow/boost.
The larger turbine housing can also reduce or eliminate surge in turbos prone to do so. I have no personal road race experience, but road racers I know complain about surge on turbos that we would never find surge on in drag racing applications. Strokers move the airflow up at lower RPM and boost levels, making surge on the small turbos more likely.
Larger hot sides have also proven to make more safe power on pump gas, which should be of particular interest to road racers that don't roll deep enough to buy 30 gallons of race fuel in a weekend I always go with the largest hot side my lag tolerance will allow...
All that being said, I would also toss in my opinion that a 30something with a hotside one step up from what you normally put on a 2 liter (.82) would do well. But, while I piece all of this together from personal experience from other situations, I've never built a road race EVO, so take all this for whatever it's worth. Good luck.
I would rather use the extra displacement for it's extra airflow (power) than for it's better spool, so I increase the hotside size to keep boost threshold/lag within my tolerance and still maximize airflow/boost. The larger turbine housing can also reduce or eliminate surge in turbos prone to do so. I have no personal road race experience, but road racers I know complain about surge on turbos that we would never find surge on in drag racing applications. Strokers move the airflow up at lower RPM and boost levels, making surge on the small turbos more likely.
Larger hot sides have also proven to make more safe power on pump gas, which should be of particular interest to road racers that don't roll deep enough to buy 30 gallons of race fuel in a weekend
I always go with the largest hot side my lag tolerance will allow... All that being said, I would also toss in my opinion that a 30something with a hotside one step up from what you normally put on a 2 liter (.82) would do well. But, while I piece all of this together from personal experience from other situations, I've never built a road race EVO, so take all this for whatever it's worth.
Good luck.
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