Groden Aluminum Rods a must for serious power
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From: Team English Racing
You're all talking freakin GREEK and I'll tell you why. By the way Dave, stop with the "I've been around forever ****". If it wasn't for Tym you'd barely be known. And half your **** is so damn over priced compared to EQUAL things that most people don't buy it anyhow. Not to mention you basically sold out to the DSM crowd so that you could cull the herd and garner nut swingers in the Evo/STI crowd. Way to go forgetting your roots.
None of you talk about piston velocity, what piston weights you are using. What kind of damage that weight and velocity will cause on the bearing. What weight oil and what clearances you using. What oil pressure you're seeing and at what RPM you're seeing it at. Differences in all these things at the wrong time will beat the **** out of some bearings. Anyone who tells you different is trying to sell you something. I mean, you can all go ahead and continue comparing apples to lug nuts, but it will come to nothing but tempers flying off the handle and Dave repeting his "If it wasn't for me there wouldn't be DSMs" mantra. And before you crap your depends Dave, yes you were there, yes you were a pioneer, but give some of the OTHER people who were there too some god damn credit for once.
Oh, and brainsurgeons, you're all not re-inventing the damn wheel here. You think other people with other vehicles didn't figure this **** out 20 years ago? Honestly, the gall of newer "tooners" is amazing. Old school drag people, F1 engineers, Road Race enthusiasts, etc have been dealing with **** like this for forever and a day. You want an answer to your issues? Find someone who's already been there. Trust me, you're not the first, and you won't be the last. Have some humble pie and go ask.
****, you're lucky that Marco isn't in this thread, he'd make you feel about 3" tall right about now. At least he is smart enough to know what he knows, where he came from, and who was there with him.
None of you talk about piston velocity, what piston weights you are using. What kind of damage that weight and velocity will cause on the bearing. What weight oil and what clearances you using. What oil pressure you're seeing and at what RPM you're seeing it at. Differences in all these things at the wrong time will beat the **** out of some bearings. Anyone who tells you different is trying to sell you something. I mean, you can all go ahead and continue comparing apples to lug nuts, but it will come to nothing but tempers flying off the handle and Dave repeting his "If it wasn't for me there wouldn't be DSMs" mantra. And before you crap your depends Dave, yes you were there, yes you were a pioneer, but give some of the OTHER people who were there too some god damn credit for once.
Oh, and brainsurgeons, you're all not re-inventing the damn wheel here. You think other people with other vehicles didn't figure this **** out 20 years ago? Honestly, the gall of newer "tooners" is amazing. Old school drag people, F1 engineers, Road Race enthusiasts, etc have been dealing with **** like this for forever and a day. You want an answer to your issues? Find someone who's already been there. Trust me, you're not the first, and you won't be the last. Have some humble pie and go ask.
****, you're lucky that Marco isn't in this thread, he'd make you feel about 3" tall right about now. At least he is smart enough to know what he knows, where he came from, and who was there with him.
1) oil presure down the track was 85 psi at 55psi. Amzoil 20-50wt
2) AFR was 11.5 on vp import and a m15 jet of meth
3) Piston weight im not sure but i will check
4) rpms up to 10,000
5) temps out side 60deg
6) Timing 14 deg on top and 11 deg at peak tq
Now this was on our groden aluminum rods with about 20 passes
Now back to the Steel Oliver rods everything was the same but at about 20 passes we had to polish the crank and replace the bearings. the mains were fine.
Now on my 157mph run we bent all 4 rods some worse than others. I know at our level and pressure per cylinder we would be equal to a 2500 hp V8 motor. Man we were just checking bearing left and right at this power level and abuse. But as soon as we went Aluminum Rods the problem went away
Here's a possibly dumb question, but here it goes....
All these people recommending Aluminum rods @ roughly 800whp...does that translate to 200whp/cylinder? Meaning, if I'm running 1000whp on different application like a 6 cylinder engine, if I stay under the 200whp/cylinder number should steel rods still be ok. I understand this my be apples to oranges, but I was wondering if the 200 whp per cylinder translates to other platforms everything else being equal.
All these people recommending Aluminum rods @ roughly 800whp...does that translate to 200whp/cylinder? Meaning, if I'm running 1000whp on different application like a 6 cylinder engine, if I stay under the 200whp/cylinder number should steel rods still be ok. I understand this my be apples to oranges, but I was wondering if the 200 whp per cylinder translates to other platforms everything else being equal.
Heres my 2cents.Ive been building import 4 cylinder racing engines probably longer than anyone on this board.i started with datsuns in the 70s.what i have concluded is that your rods are as strong as your rotating assembly.Ive always used aluminum rods for the most part Howards and euroexport to name a couple.One time i tried crower steel rods in a toyota t series and first pass i dropped the crank on the line.everything in the block snapped except the rods which only bent.steel rods are too hard for these particular engines.aluminum rods absorb a hella of lot of impact.they are also much easier on engine bearings.im still not a big fan of them for the street even though ive used them.
Heres my 2cents.Ive been building import 4 cylinder racing engines probably longer than anyone on this board.i started with datsuns in the 70s.what i have concluded is that your rods are as strong as your rotating assembly.Ive always used aluminum rods for the most part Howards and euroexport to name a couple.One time i tried crower steel rods in a toyota t series and first pass i dropped the crank on the line.everything in the block snapped except the rods which only bent.steel rods are too hard for these particular engines.aluminum rods absorb a hella of lot of impact.they are also much easier on engine bearings.im still not a big fan of them for the street even though ive used them.
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From: bremerton
Sarcasm to be sure.
Last edited by petecavscout; Jan 8, 2008 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Chris thought I was being harsh on him. I should have thought about it first.
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From: Yakima WA
You're all talking freakin GREEK and I'll tell you why. By the way Dave, stop with the "I've been around forever ****". If it wasn't for Tym you'd barely be known. And half your **** is so damn over priced compared to EQUAL things that most people don't buy it anyhow. Not to mention you basically sold out to the DSM crowd so that you could cull the herd and garner nut swingers in the Evo/STI crowd. Way to go forgetting your roots.
None of you talk about piston velocity, what piston weights you are using. What kind of damage that weight and velocity will cause on the bearing. What weight oil and what clearances you using. What oil pressure you're seeing and at what RPM you're seeing it at. Differences in all these things at the wrong time will beat the **** out of some bearings. Anyone who tells you different is trying to sell you something. I mean, you can all go ahead and continue comparing apples to lug nuts, but it will come to nothing but tempers flying off the handle and Dave repeting his "If it wasn't for me there wouldn't be DSMs" mantra. And before you crap your depends Dave, yes you were there, yes you were a pioneer, but give some of the OTHER people who were there too some god damn credit for once.
Oh, and brainsurgeons, you're all not re-inventing the damn wheel here. You think other people with other vehicles didn't figure this **** out 20 years ago? Honestly, the gall of newer "tooners" is amazing. Old school drag people, F1 engineers, Road Race enthusiasts, etc have been dealing with **** like this for forever and a day. You want an answer to your issues? Find someone who's already been there. Trust me, you're not the first, and you won't be the last. Have some humble pie and go ask.
****, you're lucky that Marco isn't in this thread, he'd make you feel about 3" tall right about now. At least he is smart enough to know what he knows, where he came from, and who was there with him.
None of you talk about piston velocity, what piston weights you are using. What kind of damage that weight and velocity will cause on the bearing. What weight oil and what clearances you using. What oil pressure you're seeing and at what RPM you're seeing it at. Differences in all these things at the wrong time will beat the **** out of some bearings. Anyone who tells you different is trying to sell you something. I mean, you can all go ahead and continue comparing apples to lug nuts, but it will come to nothing but tempers flying off the handle and Dave repeting his "If it wasn't for me there wouldn't be DSMs" mantra. And before you crap your depends Dave, yes you were there, yes you were a pioneer, but give some of the OTHER people who were there too some god damn credit for once.
Oh, and brainsurgeons, you're all not re-inventing the damn wheel here. You think other people with other vehicles didn't figure this **** out 20 years ago? Honestly, the gall of newer "tooners" is amazing. Old school drag people, F1 engineers, Road Race enthusiasts, etc have been dealing with **** like this for forever and a day. You want an answer to your issues? Find someone who's already been there. Trust me, you're not the first, and you won't be the last. Have some humble pie and go ask.
****, you're lucky that Marco isn't in this thread, he'd make you feel about 3" tall right about now. At least he is smart enough to know what he knows, where he came from, and who was there with him.
Best post on this board ever. 
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From: bremerton
I guess post count validates your E-status?
Are you aware that Al Gore created the internet? If the answer is "yes", then are you also aware that the internet is a boundless plethora of open information exchange... and that information travels at the speed of light from your local service provider through thousands of miles of copper wire, switches, routers and finally into terminals like the one you were sitting at when you asked this question?
I have been a lurker for a long time. I guess I am kind of a "big deal" on the internet.
I mean, you know...if your not out of control your not in control. You read me chief?
Are you aware that Al Gore created the internet? If the answer is "yes", then are you also aware that the internet is a boundless plethora of open information exchange... and that information travels at the speed of light from your local service provider through thousands of miles of copper wire, switches, routers and finally into terminals like the one you were sitting at when you asked this question?
I have been a lurker for a long time. I guess I am kind of a "big deal" on the internet.
I mean, you know...if your not out of control your not in control. You read me chief?
Last edited by petecavscout; Jan 7, 2008 at 11:35 PM. Reason: gay?
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Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Yakima WA
No. According to Buschur, it's time spent in the DSM world. He's been building 4g63's since Jesus was in diapers. 
Apparently, all of us here in the NW just fell off the turnip truck. I guess everybody around this area has been shipping motors to Dave to be rebuilt since the early 90's, until Lucas magically appeared just last week.
Apparently, all of us here in the NW just fell off the turnip truck. I guess everybody around this area has been shipping motors to Dave to be rebuilt since the early 90's, until Lucas magically appeared just last week.
Just in case anyone didint see it on the last page
2k4evo8, it's funny you ask me about the Groden rods being machined correctly. It's the same thing ifarted called and asked me when Lucas was trying to use them................my answer was, "I've seen just about everything."
As for Marco owning me in this thread or any other.............don't see it happening.
As for not giving credit to anyone else but myself, that's far from the truth. Truth is there are only a few companies still around that were around when I started. We published a book almost 2 years ago about modifying the 4G63. When I was asked to provide all the information for the book to be written, I INSISTED that other people be put into the book who also had involvement in breaking ground with the 4G63. It was actually "off topic" of the book but I insisted that it be put in. Companies like Archer Racing, Shepherd, AMS, Turbotrix (Jeff Hill), Brent Rau and Pruven. I contacted other companies that never got back to me after multiple calls, like Extreme Motorsports. In an arguement on the internet I am not going to list all the guys who had anything to do with ever helping move the 4G63's ahead. It's an arguement. My point is usually someone who is "new" telling me I'm an idiot doesn't go over well.
Anyway, video we just made on polishing bearings is being edited now. Just for some insight, 4 bearings can be removed from the package, polished, sprayed with WD40 and wiped down and placed back on the work bench in 50 seconds.
Get your apologies ready.
As for Marco owning me in this thread or any other.............don't see it happening.
As for not giving credit to anyone else but myself, that's far from the truth. Truth is there are only a few companies still around that were around when I started. We published a book almost 2 years ago about modifying the 4G63. When I was asked to provide all the information for the book to be written, I INSISTED that other people be put into the book who also had involvement in breaking ground with the 4G63. It was actually "off topic" of the book but I insisted that it be put in. Companies like Archer Racing, Shepherd, AMS, Turbotrix (Jeff Hill), Brent Rau and Pruven. I contacted other companies that never got back to me after multiple calls, like Extreme Motorsports. In an arguement on the internet I am not going to list all the guys who had anything to do with ever helping move the 4G63's ahead. It's an arguement. My point is usually someone who is "new" telling me I'm an idiot doesn't go over well.
Anyway, video we just made on polishing bearings is being edited now. Just for some insight, 4 bearings can be removed from the package, polished, sprayed with WD40 and wiped down and placed back on the work bench in 50 seconds.
Get your apologies ready.
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Dave, in your post quoted just below, it seems you suggest you cleaned up the bearings the next day. That is where the confusion lies I think.
Last but not least. The pictures of the bearings in my car. First off, the pistons/rods were taken out, filthy dirty and set on the floor. I took pictures to show how great they are. Looking at closer at the pictures they looked worse than they actually were. So this morning I came in and simply wiped the filth off the bearings with a paper towel. Here is a picture of them just wiped off: