http://buschurforums.com/forum/showt...118#post135118

 

but you have 3in TB though.

 

Im just posting the info , i wasnt in competition with the 65mm.. This is what i am using this is the numbers we got.. Were going to dyno the car when its finished that will then tell how this manifold is..

 

Pretty interesting thread if you read the whole thing and then think back to the original testing done on the Wilson manifold. Amazing how 3 months ago the Wilson manifold was ultra top secret, never to have any specs released (even pictures were supposedly held back), "intellectual property rights," and the testing showed it absolutely unbeatable...making HUGE GAINS over everything else...

Now David's tossing out measurements and how it was made left and right and Buschur swingers are saying it's garbage since apparently him and Indy/Wilson had a falling out.

 

03whitegsr, do you think I am dumb or arrogant enough to not realize that putting this test out there that people who both support me and don't support me would think what you just posted? Hell I even thought it before I made the post. I don't deny for a second that it's quite odd to an outsider who doesn't really know me that after a falling out with another company testing showed their intake wasn't that great and now with Wilson too. The fact is you or anyone else can buy any of the parts and do a test yourself. Also look back on the testing, as you said you did and you will see the numbers all coincide. I never tested the standard ported stock intake on a car over 300 whp back-to-back. I also did all the original testing witha stock throttle body. Mike and Al got these same results months ago and I blew them off, obviously they were both right before I was. Last year about this time when the testing started the Hypertune performed the best. Then after some throttle body swapping and more testing the DI came very close in performance and was left on the car. The the V2 came and was tested against the DI and showed to have slightly better low end and nearly identical top end. Well back to testing a year later and results show the ported stocker is the best choice under 600 whp and the V2 was best at 700 whp.

I'd like to point something out. It is easy for other companies to not get involved in pissing contest on the internet when they don't really participate in discussions. Posting a for sale add and bumping it each morning doesn't cause much controversy. Adding content to the internet on nearly a weekly basis of testing can certainly cause a stir. Testing other companies products and not being afraid to say when one does or doesn't work is sure to cause problems.

If I sat back on my *** and was just content with what ever other shop was doing you guys would be seeing a list of 9 second EVO's from last year that was 15 cars short of what it was this year. You wouldn't see any 9 second pump gas EVO's, you wouldn't see 15 mid/low 10 secon pump gas EVO's. You'd be missing out on the 8 second street EVO Mike@AWDMotorsports owns.

The fact is without constant real testing and wanting to continue to push the limits and set records by SOMEONE and then be willing to SHARE those results openly with everyone, EVO's would be a hell of a lot slower than they are.

I'll take some heat from time to time, it's how it's always been. It's how it is for anyone willing to not play nice guy all the time, kiss everyone's *** and just pretend to like "you" to rake in the profits.

Have a wonderful day.

 

David, my only problem with you is that when you do any kind of testing, you get all pissy and act like a child when somebody questions your results. Then 3 months later when you actually retest things and find different results, you get all pissy about being called out on it.

I don't really care what happened behind the scenes. Fact of the matter is, lots of people questioned your results initially and you were a complete dick about them asking questions. Now you've proven that they had valid questions yet you don’t want to admit you were wrong.

Just be a little more humble for god sakes and be willing to at least acknowledge that others out there may have valid points. You keep doing what you’re doing, because it works, the proof is in the cars you support. But jesus, you could think a little bit less of yourself and a little more of everybody else. It's quite apparent what you think about ever other Evo vendor with that last post.

For the mods, don’t worry, I’m done in this thread. I’ve spoken my mind. Life will go on and David’s post will go unscathed with only me being attacked as being an *******, and that I'm fine with.

 

I did not attack you whitegsr. I just did what I do and not sit back and take it like other nice guys do.

Which testing was questioned last time? The V2? At the time it proved to be the best and still has so far at high boost. Not sure what you are getting at with the valid points and questions. You have to be more specific as I certainly don't remember all the points/questions you must be remembering.

What have you tested out of curiousity or provided for information to the community? Not an attack but just a question based on your willingness to critique what it is I have done.

 

I'm not up on all the forum gossip but I'd like to know what happened between Buschur and Wilson to make them part ways. Last I heard they went together oreo's and milk.

David, if you're not afraid to tell it like it is I'd love to hear your side of the story if you care to share.

 

I really don't want to respond, but since you asked a legitimate question, I will.

Numerous people asked for a test between the $140 BR ported manifold and the $1600 Wilson manifold and you refused to do the test. You hyped up the Wilson manifold and now you are tearing it down.

What have I tested and posted about in the Evo community? Not a thing David. But selling Evo parts and supporting the Evo community isn't my lively hood. There should be ZERO expectations on me to do any testing. What's that saying you use to have in your sig? Something about this not being a hobby for you? Think of me as a "devil's advocate" to your opinions and your fundamental beliefs in how the EVO community should work.

To add something constructive to this conversation though. I read the thread on your board. It's interesting to see what you are testing out and I hope you find something that works out exceptionally well. Of which, you'll post results on and I and others will scrutinize the outcome of. From there, you’ll get pissed off, act like a child and swear you’ll never do it again. But of course, you will, because you have the drive to persevere, not because you believe you are right, but because as mentioned, you’re business depends on your testing. Good on you.

However, you made a comment and posted a link to some reference claiming you'd need 10' long runners to benefit from pulse tuning. Do yourself a favor and throw that "reference" out. It's 100% incorrect. If you really want to learn about it, spend a couple hundred dollars on several SAE papers/books on manifold tuning. Some of the papers you truly need to have an engineering background to even half understand, your “Redneck Engineering Degree” will NOT cut it on those papers. But a lot of the papers have very simple premises and simple testing methods to prove or disprove certain things with just a lot of math in the middle that you can skip right over and miss nothing. The abstract will usually tell you what kind of paper you are going to get. Helmholtz resonance tuning (the “scientific “name for the pulse tuning you were talking about) is one of those topics and there are literally 1000+ references available on it. You aren’t breaking new ground in engine development here, this stuff was figured out back in the1850s and very well proven in the 1960s prostock era. The best thing to do is take testing that has already been WELL PROVEN BY THOUSANDS OF GREAT MINDS and adapt it to the Evo.

 

Me afraid? Come on! haha

There is no my side/his side to this one as far as I can see it.

Briefly what happened.

1. Thread was started asking for V0 testing. 8 pages later I got tired of the comments being made.
2. I went in the thread and said I had (2) V0's, they were extremely nicely ported stock intakes but not different enough from our ported stock intake to justify $600 for them. I then said I sold them off to Mike@AWDMotorsports for customers of his who wanted them.
3. IndyEVO contacted me and told me Wilson was pissed that I said they weren't worth $600 compared to ours for $140.
4. IndyEVO contacted me again shortly after to inform me him and I were no longer allowed to be dealers of Wilsons. This made me mad because Indy was a very good friend of mine and this was one of his income sources, which he needed.
5. I called Wilson, left him a message telling him Indy had nothing to do with my post and that if he wanted to cut me off that was his choice but please let Indy sell the parts.
6. Wilson/Revell hire Indy to run their new Import Division and give him health care benefits.
7. I am no longer a Wilson dealer so I need to start intake testing again and find something new that works.
8. I find that the normal stock ported intake works better up to about 600 whp than the V2 but the V2 does better at 700 hp.

I will leave the rest of the backstabbing crap I have been subject to out of this as it is just the facts of what took place and that is why I am no longer a Wilson dealer. This is actually a very good thing as it will definetely bring more power to the table. I got lazy in the intake manifold department because I was comfortable with the power I was making and I valued Indy's friendship. Well after being stabbed in the back I realize it's the horsepower I like better than most people anyway and my car is now making record power.

 

First off, before a moderator comes in and deletes any of this, I ask that it isn't done. I am personally comfortable with this dialogue and would like to have this discussion.

03whitegsr,

Yes, I was asked to test the ported stocker for $140 against the V2. I do remember that actually. You have to understand something. I had done the ported stock intake testing before. It showed that the intake/TB was worth about 15-17 whp on a 300'ish whp car. So I was quite certain that all I would see from it was 15-17 whp. It just seemed like extra work that was not needed to be done. This testing is extremely time consuming and testing something that I knew made 15 whp again seemed pointless. I was wrong obviously. If I had to do it over again, I'd like to go back and do that, I am not Doc Brown though You see it as I refused to do the test when that is not exactly correct. I did do the test already, just not a 600 whp car and didn't think the test outcome would change.

I was asked not to post pictures and details on the intake manifold back then by Indy. I didn't post them because he asked me not to. I am posting the information now because obviously that friendship/business relationship is done and over with.

As for the papers you suggested. I have done a lot of reading, most of it makes very little sense to me. The race track and dyno make sense though. I also understand much more about the 10' runner comment I made just a few weeks ago and realize that is not the case. I found it interesting at the time I found it. It just goes to show you have to be careful what you take for fact by someone typing his *** off on the internet. haha

The best way for me to personally make grounds on an intake manifold is to build it/buy it/test it. That is what I am doing.

 

Nice, concise explanation.

 

thanks for the info David.

 

Dave -- Thanks for all of your information, testing, and help...The EVO community has benefited greatly from your contributions. I am not a fanboy per se, but have a lot of respect for you. I also wish you were closer, so I could have you work on my car and perform your 'magic'.

Best of luck in 2009!

 

...seems like new leaves are being turned over here.