HTA 35R VS 35R Twin Scroll Pump Gas on both
I think its safe to say that twin scroll works. It just seems hard to prove its value.
Ted B whose opinion you should never take lightly has mentioned that he after driving similar setups with the main difference being twin scroll and open scroll has mentioned that he wanted to "throw rocks at the open scroll design" because of how superior the TS felt.
Twin scroll from everything I have read reaps most of its benefit from 4cyl engines which is most likely why you don't see TS technology in crazy turbo race cars like f1, alms, etc. The only large engine app where it would be worth it would be a v8 with a 180deg crank which essentially is 2 4cyl's put together....
If TS was hype, why would mitsubishi have change the evo from open scroll to twin scroll if there was no benefit? To spend money for no reason? I think they switched over in the evo4 and its been like that for some time now....
Also something else to consider, people say that open scroll is better for drag and that TS is better for spool/response. I think it is just a more efficient turbo setup in a 4cyl. 8 years ago the fastest imports were all using twinscroll design Stephan Papadakis, Lisa Kubo, Myles Bautista, Ben Ma........
The new HTA T4Z (37R) had pretty dissapointing results from AMS on a dyno but if it wasn't a more efficient wheel then why would FP risk its reputation to sell a turbo that doesn't work?? Maybe we need to figure out a new way to test turbine and compressor efficiency because its obvious that TS works, we just can't find sufficient testing to make believers out of everyone....
Im just barfing out information in an unorganized fashion but turbine and compressor efficiency seems to be hard to test in the conventional ways we are used to.
Ted B whose opinion you should never take lightly has mentioned that he after driving similar setups with the main difference being twin scroll and open scroll has mentioned that he wanted to "throw rocks at the open scroll design" because of how superior the TS felt.
Twin scroll from everything I have read reaps most of its benefit from 4cyl engines which is most likely why you don't see TS technology in crazy turbo race cars like f1, alms, etc. The only large engine app where it would be worth it would be a v8 with a 180deg crank which essentially is 2 4cyl's put together....
If TS was hype, why would mitsubishi have change the evo from open scroll to twin scroll if there was no benefit? To spend money for no reason? I think they switched over in the evo4 and its been like that for some time now....
Also something else to consider, people say that open scroll is better for drag and that TS is better for spool/response. I think it is just a more efficient turbo setup in a 4cyl. 8 years ago the fastest imports were all using twinscroll design Stephan Papadakis, Lisa Kubo, Myles Bautista, Ben Ma........
The new HTA T4Z (37R) had pretty dissapointing results from AMS on a dyno but if it wasn't a more efficient wheel then why would FP risk its reputation to sell a turbo that doesn't work?? Maybe we need to figure out a new way to test turbine and compressor efficiency because its obvious that TS works, we just can't find sufficient testing to make believers out of everyone....
Im just barfing out information in an unorganized fashion but turbine and compressor efficiency seems to be hard to test in the conventional ways we are used to.
First of all, it's The Shop's dyno - which reads like a dynojet and HAS been manipulated.
Second - dyno dynamics are loading dynos and will load the car more. The dynojet uses the inertia of the roller whereas the dyno dynamics uses eddy current retarders (lol) to basically apply a load that the vehicle must overcome which is then measured. It will create a different looking curve (the most notable dyno that does this is dynapacks).
Third - look at the low end power and torque - the TS hits 200wtq/hp at 3500/4000 respectively while the other one hits those values at 4100/4400 on a dyno that should have slightly better spoolup (just spoolup due to the loading - it should have lower numbers than the dynojet but this one does not). Nobody ever said the twinscroll was going to make more power, just that it was going to spool better.
Fourth - there are quite a few differences in the vehicle, tuner, and date of the run (which should have different weather conditions).
Finally - for someone named "ca$h" who has an avatar of stacks of money you sure are hung up on price. Oh and when figuring the difference don't forget to add the price of the intercooler pipes, intercooler and the tubular manifold kit (4300 + 760 + 480). 6800 vs 5500 and you get a tial bov and a second 44mm wastegate which aren't pure profit and the price difference doesn't seem as insane. But whatever, you're intraw3b skills sure beat everyone else's real world experience.
[sarcasm]Dude, you should totally look into ATP kits - they make almost the same power (who cares that they take 600 rpm longer to get there) and they're hella cheap! [/sarcasm]
Second - dyno dynamics are loading dynos and will load the car more. The dynojet uses the inertia of the roller whereas the dyno dynamics uses eddy current retarders (lol) to basically apply a load that the vehicle must overcome which is then measured. It will create a different looking curve (the most notable dyno that does this is dynapacks).
Third - look at the low end power and torque - the TS hits 200wtq/hp at 3500/4000 respectively while the other one hits those values at 4100/4400 on a dyno that should have slightly better spoolup (just spoolup due to the loading - it should have lower numbers than the dynojet but this one does not). Nobody ever said the twinscroll was going to make more power, just that it was going to spool better.
Fourth - there are quite a few differences in the vehicle, tuner, and date of the run (which should have different weather conditions).
Finally - for someone named "ca$h" who has an avatar of stacks of money you sure are hung up on price. Oh and when figuring the difference don't forget to add the price of the intercooler pipes, intercooler and the tubular manifold kit (4300 + 760 + 480). 6800 vs 5500 and you get a tial bov and a second 44mm wastegate which aren't pure profit and the price difference doesn't seem as insane. But whatever, you're intraw3b skills sure beat everyone else's real world experience.
[sarcasm]Dude, you should totally look into ATP kits - they make almost the same power (who cares that they take 600 rpm longer to get there) and they're hella cheap! [/sarcasm]
Evolved Member
iTrader: (5)
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,858
Likes: 0
From: Work - New York, Alaska, Mexico or the Caribbean. -Home - Tx Hill Country
There's a big difference in cams, Buschur 272s on the HTA and HKS 272s on the TS. Does the HTA car have head work because the the Buschur cams require upgraded springs and retainers. I'd like to see what a twin scroll 1.06 would do with the upgraded HTA compressor.
BTW - When you're figuring the cost of a TS set up, figure $300-$400 more for the mani and the cost of the additional dump and waste gate if it is twin wg set up. That ends up costing $600-$700 more than a conventional set up or $200-$300 more than an HTA set up if it has twin waste gates.
BTW - When you're figuring the cost of a TS set up, figure $300-$400 more for the mani and the cost of the additional dump and waste gate if it is twin wg set up. That ends up costing $600-$700 more than a conventional set up or $200-$300 more than an HTA set up if it has twin waste gates.
There's a big difference in cams, Buschur 272s on the HTA and HKS 272s on the TS. Does the HTA car have head work because the the Buschur cams require upgraded springs and retainers. I'd like to see what a twin scroll 1.06 would do with the upgraded HTA compressor.
BTW - When you're figuring the cost of a TS set up, figure $300-$400 more for the mani and the cost of the additional dump and waste gate if it is twin wg set up. That ends up costing $600-$700 more than a conventional set up or $200-$300 more than an HTA set up if it has twin waste gates.
BTW - When you're figuring the cost of a TS set up, figure $300-$400 more for the mani and the cost of the additional dump and waste gate if it is twin wg set up. That ends up costing $600-$700 more than a conventional set up or $200-$300 more than an HTA set up if it has twin waste gates.
I Agree I want to see a ts 1.06 with the HTA!!
Twin scroll from everything I have read reaps most of its benefit from 4cyl engines which is most likely why you don't see TS technology in crazy turbo race cars like f1, alms, etc. The only large engine app where it would be worth it would be a v8 with a 180deg crank which essentially is 2 4cyl's put together....
if it wasn't a more efficient wheel then why would FP risk its reputation to sell a turbo that doesn't work?? Maybe we need to figure out a new way to test turbine and compressor efficiency because its obvious that TS works, we just can't find sufficient testing to make believers out of everyone.... turbine and compressor efficiency seems to be hard to test in the conventional ways we are used to.
good stuff
there is nothing new you need to figure out. you just need to learn how to work with ratios, speed lines, comp maps, turbine maps and calculate turbine efficiency then backpressure ratios. Its actually relatively straightforwards, nothing new under the sun... in fact the best material i have on the topic was written in 1992
Thanks Geoff,
What is the material that you are speaking of that was written in '92? I'm very interested to read that.
Also, What are your opinions on the (open scroll) 3076HTA in a .63 A/R turbine?
i think the 3076 is a mismatch turbo, although it works fairly well. the borg warner (aka HTA) wheel makes it a gross mismatch, and i can not imagine this turbo working well, particularly with the .63 a/r... i think a lot of people are going to be disappointed as this is not going to have good turbine efficiency and VE will drop as a result... of course i could be wrong, but this is my feeling on the topic
conversely, using the borgwarner/airwerks turbo that is designed around the real extended tip comp wheel (the one they are stuffing in the 30R chra), with the correct borgwarner turbine wheel (matching speed lines) and turbine housing (Which happens to be twinscroll) would be an exceptional combination at a great price, and offer huge amounts of flexibility.
no not much at all
here HTA 35R~MODS:
HTA35r w\.63 AR 5 bolt
RNR Manifold w/38 TIAL WG
APS Intake
APS 3inch Complete Exhaust
BF 272 Cams
Stock ECU,MAF, Intake mani and Cylinder Head
2.0 liter
HKS DLII Ignition
Hyperflow Large IC with THE SHOP LICP
here TS 35R~ 23psi 440 whp and 376 tq
Basic mods
evo9
stock block
stock head
stock valve train
hks 272
Full Race t4 GT35r
HKS Vpro tune by Sean Ivey
Exedy Triple Disc
PTE 1000cc
Vertical flow IC
stock uicp
here HTA 35R~MODS:
HTA35r w\.63 AR 5 bolt
RNR Manifold w/38 TIAL WG
APS Intake
APS 3inch Complete Exhaust
BF 272 Cams
Stock ECU,MAF, Intake mani and Cylinder Head
2.0 liter
HKS DLII Ignition
Hyperflow Large IC with THE SHOP LICP
here TS 35R~ 23psi 440 whp and 376 tq
Basic mods
evo9
stock block
stock head
stock valve train
hks 272
Full Race t4 GT35r
HKS Vpro tune by Sean Ivey
Exedy Triple Disc
PTE 1000cc
Vertical flow IC
stock uicp
Here is why there not the same
cam specs not the same
manifold sepcs not the same
wg specs not the same
twin plate vs single
maf vs no maf
i/c the airflow is not the same.
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
From: fl
The Price on a twin scroll is a joke you gotta be kidding.....!!!!
PLEASE....
First the % diff on a Dynamics Dyno and a Dyno Jet is approx 15% increase on a dyno jet. I have a buddy running 420 whp on a dyno Jet on a green and 480 whp with race gas....!!!!!! With alot better spool than that 35r twin scroll.
If the HTA is producing that much on a DD that translates into a huge power diff. As for the extras it comes with most people already have those parts upgraded by the time they buy a turbo. So even if you wanted to but a TS turbo you have to buy it with all the parts with its over inflated prices...
Ya you can keep that turbo it looks like a real winner.....
PLEASE....
First the % diff on a Dynamics Dyno and a Dyno Jet is approx 15% increase on a dyno jet. I have a buddy running 420 whp on a dyno Jet on a green and 480 whp with race gas....!!!!!! With alot better spool than that 35r twin scroll.
If the HTA is producing that much on a DD that translates into a huge power diff. As for the extras it comes with most people already have those parts upgraded by the time they buy a turbo. So even if you wanted to but a TS turbo you have to buy it with all the parts with its over inflated prices...
Ya you can keep that turbo it looks like a real winner.....