Power Coming out of the woodwork in the last year?
Evolving Member
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: In front of a Catia screen
sometimes i think people don't realize that just because the states didn't have evos, that means we didn't have the 4g63 to play with...
Also, the fuel differences between USA and, pretty much anywhere else are fairly significant. Our gas sucks..
Also, the fuel differences between USA and, pretty much anywhere else are fairly significant. Our gas sucks..
.I remember reading, at least 5 years ago or more, of a person making 500 whp in his DSM on pump, I believe with some sort of custom 50 trim nonetheless. I forget all of the details since it has been so long ago.
You have to remember that the Evo was new to the US in 2003 and a lot of people on this board are new to the 4g63 since buying an Evo. The DSM had this engine back to 1989, as was mentioned.
When I had my DSM, I used DSMLink and those bunch of guys on that forum (only open to DSMLink customers) made pretty big numbers on pump as well. The general consensus was always that more boost and less timing made better numbers than vice versa on pump.
Now, don't get me wrong...500 HP on pump is an awesome accomplishment and it seems as though it is getting easier and easier as of late, but I don't think it is anything new. Just new to this board maybe and the US Evo.
Eric
Evolved Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,345
Likes: 1
From: MA
I remember this, too. I don't think these numbers on pump are anything new to the 4g63, I think it's just new to this board.
I remember reading, at least 5 years ago or more, of a person making 500 whp in his DSM on pump, I believe with some sort of custom 50 trim nonetheless. I forget all of the details since it has been so long ago.
You have to remember that the Evo was new to the US in 2003 and a lot of people on this board are new to the 4g63 since buying an Evo. The DSM had this engine back to 1989, as was mentioned.
When I had my DSM, I used DSMLink and those bunch of guys on that forum (only open to DSMLink customers) made pretty big numbers on pump as well. The general consensus was always that more boost and less timing made better numbers than vice versa on pump.
Now, don't get me wrong...500 HP on pump is an awesome accomplishment and it seems as though it is getting easier and easier as of late, but I don't think it is anything new. Just new to this board maybe and the US Evo.
Eric
I remember reading, at least 5 years ago or more, of a person making 500 whp in his DSM on pump, I believe with some sort of custom 50 trim nonetheless. I forget all of the details since it has been so long ago.
You have to remember that the Evo was new to the US in 2003 and a lot of people on this board are new to the 4g63 since buying an Evo. The DSM had this engine back to 1989, as was mentioned.
When I had my DSM, I used DSMLink and those bunch of guys on that forum (only open to DSMLink customers) made pretty big numbers on pump as well. The general consensus was always that more boost and less timing made better numbers than vice versa on pump.
Now, don't get me wrong...500 HP on pump is an awesome accomplishment and it seems as though it is getting easier and easier as of late, but I don't think it is anything new. Just new to this board maybe and the US Evo.
Eric
tuners have always said boost makes more power than timing. the few kids i talk to over here have known the europeans have been doing this for a while. I'm glad its making its way into the mainstream evo scene. now people won't think its too far fetched to be running 25+ psi on pump, when the UK scene has been dropping compression and running closer to 30psi on pump.
Also keep in mind that it may be relatively new for our US Evos because we didn't have all of these great aftermarket parts right away. We now have a ton of efficient ICs, turbos, cams, etc that just weren't available for our cars when they first came out.
I think that in conjunction with what has already been done with the 4g63 in the past, both here with DSMs and overseas with older Evos is why we are seeing more and more great pump gas numbers for our US Evos.
So, some is new, some isn't. But, at the very least we owe a lot of thanks to vendors like FP, Buschur, and others that develop and test new and better parts for our Evos and share that information with the community.
Eric
I think that in conjunction with what has already been done with the 4g63 in the past, both here with DSMs and overseas with older Evos is why we are seeing more and more great pump gas numbers for our US Evos.
So, some is new, some isn't. But, at the very least we owe a lot of thanks to vendors like FP, Buschur, and others that develop and test new and better parts for our Evos and share that information with the community.
Eric
well torque is relative to horsepower, and boost = torque...
with bigger turbos being more effiecent you can run more boost with AIT being lower
less timing more boost will also give you the HP!
I am just curios as to what timing they run on peak torque and redline, must be like 3-4 deg at peak boost and about 7-8 deg at redline on the states 93 octane @ 30psi.
I could be wrong as i know nothing about tuning...
with bigger turbos being more effiecent you can run more boost with AIT being lower
less timing more boost will also give you the HP!
I am just curios as to what timing they run on peak torque and redline, must be like 3-4 deg at peak boost and about 7-8 deg at redline on the states 93 octane @ 30psi.
I could be wrong as i know nothing about tuning...
This idea that the timing is "really really low" to make these numbers might not be 100% accurate either.
You simply need less timing advance to get a complete burn as the cylinder pressures increase. The fact that somebody running 8 degrees of total advance at 30 PSI doesn't really mean the car is running low timing. It might be low compared to a nother's car running 20 PSI and 14 degrees peak advance, but that 8 degrees might be all it needs at 30 PSI to burn efficiently.
FWIW, l2R99GST and I are talking about the same person. "Custom" 50 trim from (I believe) AGPTurbo. I think the turbo was a T350 turbine wheel attached to the BCI-18C 76mm 50-trim compressor wheel. I think that it was based on the same compressor wheel that is in the GT3076R, just a cut down version. 3.5" exhaust (he got a TON of **** for using that large of an exhaust and since then I know I've seen even at the 400HP level, a 3.5" exhaust is worth some decent gains on some cars). He messed around a lot with cam timing and he found some significant power there which is probably where a lot of the MIVEC motors are making impressive numbers from on pump gas. I specifically remember posts where he said he was running over 30 PSI and as low as 5 degrees of peak timing advance. I also remember some BIG names in 4G63 tuning telling him he didn't know what he was doing and that he was tuning the car all wrong. Honestly, the guy didn't come across too well on the internet in his posts, but IMO he was years ahead of everybody else on the pumpgas front in the USA on the 4G63. I think the next closest car on 93 octane at the time was in the mid 300 range while he was over the 500 mark. I wonder what ever happened to him???
You simply need less timing advance to get a complete burn as the cylinder pressures increase. The fact that somebody running 8 degrees of total advance at 30 PSI doesn't really mean the car is running low timing. It might be low compared to a nother's car running 20 PSI and 14 degrees peak advance, but that 8 degrees might be all it needs at 30 PSI to burn efficiently.
FWIW, l2R99GST and I are talking about the same person. "Custom" 50 trim from (I believe) AGPTurbo. I think the turbo was a T350 turbine wheel attached to the BCI-18C 76mm 50-trim compressor wheel. I think that it was based on the same compressor wheel that is in the GT3076R, just a cut down version. 3.5" exhaust (he got a TON of **** for using that large of an exhaust and since then I know I've seen even at the 400HP level, a 3.5" exhaust is worth some decent gains on some cars). He messed around a lot with cam timing and he found some significant power there which is probably where a lot of the MIVEC motors are making impressive numbers from on pump gas. I specifically remember posts where he said he was running over 30 PSI and as low as 5 degrees of peak timing advance. I also remember some BIG names in 4G63 tuning telling him he didn't know what he was doing and that he was tuning the car all wrong. Honestly, the guy didn't come across too well on the internet in his posts, but IMO he was years ahead of everybody else on the pumpgas front in the USA on the 4G63. I think the next closest car on 93 octane at the time was in the mid 300 range while he was over the 500 mark. I wonder what ever happened to him???
This idea that the timing is "really really low" to make these numbers might not be 100% accurate either.
You simply need less timing advance to get a complete burn as the cylinder pressures increase. The fact that somebody running 8 degrees of total advance at 30 PSI doesn't really mean the car is running low timing. It might be low compared to a nother's car running 20 PSI and 14 degrees peak advance, but that 8 degrees might be all it needs at 30 PSI to burn efficiently.
FWIW, l2R99GST and I are talking about the same person. "Custom" 50 trim from (I believe) AGPTurbo. I think the turbo was a T350 turbine wheel attached to the BCI-18C 76mm 50-trim compressor wheel. I think that it was based on the same compressor wheel that is in the GT3076R, just a cut down version. 3.5" exhaust (he got a TON of **** for using that large of an exhaust and since then I know I've seen even at the 400HP level, a 3.5" exhaust is worth some decent gains on some cars). He messed around a lot with cam timing and he found some significant power there which is probably where a lot of the MIVEC motors are making impressive numbers from on pump gas. I specifically remember posts where he said he was running over 30 PSI and as low as 5 degrees of peak timing advance. I also remember some BIG names in 4G63 tuning telling him he didn't know what he was doing and that he was tuning the car all wrong. Honestly, the guy didn't come across too well on the internet in his posts, but IMO he was years ahead of everybody else on the pumpgas front in the USA on the 4G63. I think the next closest car on 93 octane at the time was in the mid 300 range while he was over the 500 mark. I wonder what ever happened to him???
You simply need less timing advance to get a complete burn as the cylinder pressures increase. The fact that somebody running 8 degrees of total advance at 30 PSI doesn't really mean the car is running low timing. It might be low compared to a nother's car running 20 PSI and 14 degrees peak advance, but that 8 degrees might be all it needs at 30 PSI to burn efficiently.
FWIW, l2R99GST and I are talking about the same person. "Custom" 50 trim from (I believe) AGPTurbo. I think the turbo was a T350 turbine wheel attached to the BCI-18C 76mm 50-trim compressor wheel. I think that it was based on the same compressor wheel that is in the GT3076R, just a cut down version. 3.5" exhaust (he got a TON of **** for using that large of an exhaust and since then I know I've seen even at the 400HP level, a 3.5" exhaust is worth some decent gains on some cars). He messed around a lot with cam timing and he found some significant power there which is probably where a lot of the MIVEC motors are making impressive numbers from on pump gas. I specifically remember posts where he said he was running over 30 PSI and as low as 5 degrees of peak timing advance. I also remember some BIG names in 4G63 tuning telling him he didn't know what he was doing and that he was tuning the car all wrong. Honestly, the guy didn't come across too well on the internet in his posts, but IMO he was years ahead of everybody else on the pumpgas front in the USA on the 4G63. I think the next closest car on 93 octane at the time was in the mid 300 range while he was over the 500 mark. I wonder what ever happened to him???
Your talking about Andre and the "targa top 2g" IIRC. He held the DSM pumpgas record for many years.
SQ
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From: Work - New York, Alaska, Mexico or the Caribbean. -Home - Tx Hill Country
Another thing to remember is just because you have not seen it on EVOm, does not mean it hasn't happened. There's a common ignorance on here that people seem to fall into, "well, I don't know about it" so it must not be. I know of a few tuners that have been making similar power to the current levels for about 4 years. They don't post on here because they don't need to or really have time to, but they've been making the power.
At least we aren't as bad as the Subaru guys where everything is impossible if it hasn't been done before by every shop under the sun, lol. Check out the Proven Power Bragging on NASIOC and watch what happens when anyone pushes the envelope. A small group of idiots call BS on nearly every accomplishment. Buschur knows about the idiots on NASIOC. He's tested some different ideas on the Subby and posted them on NASIOC only to be called out by some idiot that's probably never even tuned a car.
At least we aren't as bad as the Subaru guys where everything is impossible if it hasn't been done before by every shop under the sun, lol. Check out the Proven Power Bragging on NASIOC and watch what happens when anyone pushes the envelope. A small group of idiots call BS on nearly every accomplishment. Buschur knows about the idiots on NASIOC. He's tested some different ideas on the Subby and posted them on NASIOC only to be called out by some idiot that's probably never even tuned a car.
I am very curious to how within this past year, all of a sudden we are seeing cars making 100+ more horsepower on pump gas.
I understand that people learn tweaks along the way, and I am sure that the gas hasn't gotten any better this past year. So the question is, how is it, all of a sudden do all of these cars make all this power on pump gas?
I have done some searching to find someone else asking this same question, but I was unable to find any answers.
My only conclusion is, I did read something about a year ago, when someone found a map or something to that effect from Europe. This fuel / timing / boost map had very very low timing, but higher boost to make up for it. I am wondering if that has been the "magical" secret that has been used as of late.
I understand that people learn tweaks along the way, and I am sure that the gas hasn't gotten any better this past year. So the question is, how is it, all of a sudden do all of these cars make all this power on pump gas?
I have done some searching to find someone else asking this same question, but I was unable to find any answers.
My only conclusion is, I did read something about a year ago, when someone found a map or something to that effect from Europe. This fuel / timing / boost map had very very low timing, but higher boost to make up for it. I am wondering if that has been the "magical" secret that has been used as of late.
There really isn't a magical secret about it. I made a very lengthy post about it a few months ago in the DI thread.
Number one is the right combination of parts and number two, someone who knows how to make these parts work in harmony (proper tuning techniques)
Part combination is 75% of the equation.
When we were racing last year, we had no choice but to learn to work around pump fuel as our budget did not support running race fuel. Alky injection was an option but it was not very reliable on the road course.
BTW someone elses "low timing" may be someone elses optimal timing lead for the airflow/boost that the engine needs.
I'll be making a post here in the next couple of weeks outlining the essentials needed to accomplish this. It isn't rocket science, just practical theoretical sense of thermodynamics, patience and the ability to produce good products that work well together.
Good post robert. I remember when I posted my 11.85 drag time with only stage 1 and pump gas. Over half the replies where people saying it was not possible. Good parts and a good tune go A LOOOOONNNNGGGG way. I only wish I would have has an Evo8 fourth gear as I know the times would have been even more impressive.
SQ
SQ
There really isn't a magical secret about it. I made a very lengthy post about it a few months ago in the DI thread.
Number one is the right combination of parts and number two, someone who knows how to make these parts work in harmony (proper tuning techniques)
Part combination is 75% of the equation.
When we were racing last year, we had no choice but to learn to work around pump fuel as our budget did not support running race fuel. Alky injection was an option but it was not very reliable on the road course.
BTW someone elses "low timing" may be someone elses optimal timing lead for the airflow/boost that the engine needs.
I'll be making a post here in the next couple of weeks outlining the essentials needed to accomplish this. It isn't rocket science, just practical theoretical sense of thermodynamics, patience and the ability to produce good products that work well together.
Number one is the right combination of parts and number two, someone who knows how to make these parts work in harmony (proper tuning techniques)
Part combination is 75% of the equation.
When we were racing last year, we had no choice but to learn to work around pump fuel as our budget did not support running race fuel. Alky injection was an option but it was not very reliable on the road course.
BTW someone elses "low timing" may be someone elses optimal timing lead for the airflow/boost that the engine needs.
I'll be making a post here in the next couple of weeks outlining the essentials needed to accomplish this. It isn't rocket science, just practical theoretical sense of thermodynamics, patience and the ability to produce good products that work well together.
Spot on!!!
and thanks for sharing your info
