New FP White turbo
BTW, the only thing that im stuck on is this comment. Looks like a lot of people overlooked it.
The only thing that was harder was getting past 60lb/min and 480whp at 27psi, but that was a much laggier combination - and a topic for another discussion.
BOOST ON!
Robert Young
Ive been saying that if FP or anyone came up with a turbo that would bolt right up, internally gated, making that power/airflow for around 2000k-2200k would make a killing. it possible because the Green is only 1699 now. maybe this is the "RED" that we have all been waiting for. Im an old school DSM guy (91 galant vr4) so i already know what time it is. THATS the turbo that I'm waiting for.
The only thing that was harder was getting past 60lb/min and 480whp at 27psi, but that was a much laggier combination - and a topic for another discussion.
BOOST ON!
Robert Young
Ive been saying that if FP or anyone came up with a turbo that would bolt right up, internally gated, making that power/airflow for around 2000k-2200k would make a killing. it possible because the Green is only 1699 now. maybe this is the "RED" that we have all been waiting for. Im an old school DSM guy (91 galant vr4) so i already know what time it is. THATS the turbo that I'm waiting for.
I'm not blasting if any thing its paying homage to FP's range that so many people are in a predicament of upgrading between two of there own turbo's , But like others i want to purchase once and the right one so in order to make my mind up i would like to see a dyno camparing my own IX and the two fp turbo's i'd be choosing from i.e green & White.
BTW, the only thing that im stuck on is this comment. Looks like a lot of people overlooked it.
The only thing that was harder was getting past 60lb/min and 480whp at 27psi, but that was a much laggier combination - and a topic for another discussion.
BOOST ON!
Robert Young
Ive been saying that if FP or anyone came up with a turbo that would bolt right up, internally gated, making that power/airflow for around 2000k-2200k would make a killing. it possible because the Green is only 1699 now. maybe this is the "RED" that we have all been waiting for. Im an old school DSM guy (91 galant vr4) so i already know what time it is. THATS the turbo that I'm waiting for.
The only thing that was harder was getting past 60lb/min and 480whp at 27psi, but that was a much laggier combination - and a topic for another discussion.
BOOST ON!
Robert Young
Ive been saying that if FP or anyone came up with a turbo that would bolt right up, internally gated, making that power/airflow for around 2000k-2200k would make a killing. it possible because the Green is only 1699 now. maybe this is the "RED" that we have all been waiting for. Im an old school DSM guy (91 galant vr4) so i already know what time it is. THATS the turbo that I'm waiting for.
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
From: Dubai
To each their own - I don't see this as a power turbo anyways though - that's what the Green does. This is more like an OEM+ upgrade that will appeal to a select market - basically people who do want gains but aren't all hung up on big power and who aren't willing to sacrifice any driveability they don't have to.
But hey, whatever, let's see how things work out. Nobody can accuse FP or overselling this turbo at all though
But hey, whatever, let's see how things work out. Nobody can accuse FP or overselling this turbo at all though
A lot of people, including me, bought the white rabbit in 2005 based on the dyno numbers that FP published on EvoM for a minimally modded car, and turned out disappointed with the real world results. When the EvoM masses condemned FP for misleading dyno numbers, Robert@FP responded on here:
"If any of you think that you can do an AEM tune up as good as Tym Switzer, you should have taken the blue pill from Morphious and woke up back in your bed instead of following the rabbit down the hole. We went to Tym because he has always been the guy that leaves NOTHING on the table when it comes to make power."
That infuriated me when I first read it because it was so inconsistent with prior statements promoting the turbo and the results on "stock cams", etc., and I haven't forgotten it. Now you are saying that your White numbers are not ringer max HP runs and we should expect to do better. I'll believe it when I see it.
"If any of you think that you can do an AEM tune up as good as Tym Switzer, you should have taken the blue pill from Morphious and woke up back in your bed instead of following the rabbit down the hole. We went to Tym because he has always been the guy that leaves NOTHING on the table when it comes to make power."
That infuriated me when I first read it because it was so inconsistent with prior statements promoting the turbo and the results on "stock cams", etc., and I haven't forgotten it. Now you are saying that your White numbers are not ringer max HP runs and we should expect to do better. I'll believe it when I see it.
Realize I don't care to make any statement on FP. But I'm happy to call BS on Groc's statement here.
I think Robert tested the White at 22 psi, which is right in the range that PsychDR was looking for. I'm not too sure how many guys will run the same boost as us, but the only fuel I have is Import. I think if we were to test it at the higher end of the mods, at least everyone would have a good idea of it's hp range. How does that sound. Suggestions better be quick.
Evolving Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
From: McKinney TX
This would have been posted before noon if we hadn't been blocked from the shop.
Here is the datalog from the dyno graph previously posted.
Couple of notes first-
You don't get flow data (yet), there are valid reasons, none of which are fear of being ridiculed, the 'Volumetric flow unitless' is just that- a unitless graph. Don't try to read anything into it.
Boost pressure was slightly higher than I thought.
Notice Compressor Outlet Pressure and Intake Manifold Pressure diverge, there is a pressure loss between the turbo outlet and intake manifold that gets greater with more flow. This is normal. Reducing this pressure loss would result in better power. Remember the upper IC pipes and hoses on this car are stock. Having a 90 degree elbow on the comp housing would make this much worse. Every one of you runs a much higher PR than you think you do.
Data filtering is set fairly low on all the pressure readings so you can see a couple phenomena that occur.
All 3 of the abs pressure sensors in this log read within 0.2 kPa of current reported atmo at the airport 2 miles away.
Critical tip speed for this wheel occurs at somewhere between 163K-166K RPM, depending on how it is calculated.
Now, onto the meat;
Follow Compressor Inlet Pressure (CIP, it is in kPa abs) from the left to the right- there is a small area of instability as the car comes up on boost, this is a normal presurge condition you see on about any turbo in this area. If you keep following to the right, the pressure is stable, but gradually dropping.
I converted the outlet pressures to PSIg from kPa abs for scaling purposes.
There are some areas of pressure instability in the midrange at around the 10 second tick, I believe this is due to the ACD and/or tire to roller.
The cursor was left in the middle of the area of critical shaft RPM, if you notice, just before critical RPM the OUTLET pressures gradually become unstable, then smooth out a bit right at critical speed, then become unstable and gradually smooth out, similar to an aeroplane going thru Mach 1. Just before this point maximum flow is reached and plateaus, then gets a little unstable and seems to drop as the turbo reaches max RPM, which is just the other side of critical RPM. You can't see it, but the turbo RPM is also unstable in a fashion that mirrors the pressure instability.
Notice the plateau of shaft RPM and turbine pressure at approx. 11.5 seconds, seems pretty happy right there (also corresponds to HP peak) and after that how turbine pressure starts to rise sharply as the point of outlet pressure instability starts. Hmmm.
This is a pretty good example of some more tuning needs to be done. When you have proper ign timing the exhaust pressure doesn't make a fast rise towards the end of the map like the below, it tends to be much smoother and several PSI lower (less heat duh) and stays relative to compressor flow, THIS IS POWER LEFT ON THE TABLE and probably the biggest reason the dyno graph drops off right in that area.
Some things to think about.
Here is the datalog from the dyno graph previously posted.
Couple of notes first-
You don't get flow data (yet), there are valid reasons, none of which are fear of being ridiculed, the 'Volumetric flow unitless' is just that- a unitless graph. Don't try to read anything into it.
Boost pressure was slightly higher than I thought.
Notice Compressor Outlet Pressure and Intake Manifold Pressure diverge, there is a pressure loss between the turbo outlet and intake manifold that gets greater with more flow. This is normal. Reducing this pressure loss would result in better power. Remember the upper IC pipes and hoses on this car are stock. Having a 90 degree elbow on the comp housing would make this much worse. Every one of you runs a much higher PR than you think you do.
Data filtering is set fairly low on all the pressure readings so you can see a couple phenomena that occur.
All 3 of the abs pressure sensors in this log read within 0.2 kPa of current reported atmo at the airport 2 miles away.
Critical tip speed for this wheel occurs at somewhere between 163K-166K RPM, depending on how it is calculated.
Now, onto the meat;
Follow Compressor Inlet Pressure (CIP, it is in kPa abs) from the left to the right- there is a small area of instability as the car comes up on boost, this is a normal presurge condition you see on about any turbo in this area. If you keep following to the right, the pressure is stable, but gradually dropping.
I converted the outlet pressures to PSIg from kPa abs for scaling purposes.
There are some areas of pressure instability in the midrange at around the 10 second tick, I believe this is due to the ACD and/or tire to roller.
The cursor was left in the middle of the area of critical shaft RPM, if you notice, just before critical RPM the OUTLET pressures gradually become unstable, then smooth out a bit right at critical speed, then become unstable and gradually smooth out, similar to an aeroplane going thru Mach 1. Just before this point maximum flow is reached and plateaus, then gets a little unstable and seems to drop as the turbo reaches max RPM, which is just the other side of critical RPM. You can't see it, but the turbo RPM is also unstable in a fashion that mirrors the pressure instability.
Notice the plateau of shaft RPM and turbine pressure at approx. 11.5 seconds, seems pretty happy right there (also corresponds to HP peak) and after that how turbine pressure starts to rise sharply as the point of outlet pressure instability starts. Hmmm.
This is a pretty good example of some more tuning needs to be done. When you have proper ign timing the exhaust pressure doesn't make a fast rise towards the end of the map like the below, it tends to be much smoother and several PSI lower (less heat duh) and stays relative to compressor flow, THIS IS POWER LEFT ON THE TABLE and probably the biggest reason the dyno graph drops off right in that area.
Some things to think about.
Last edited by GrocMax; Jul 2, 2008 at 06:11 PM. Reason: add dyno graph
This one, circa post #253 in this thread:
"When we publish dyno runs of our cars they are replicatable results that can be achieved by anyone, not ringer max HP runs. You should be able to do better than us."
The one that elicited the first such reply from EVO8LTW:
"A lot of people, including me, bought the white rabbit in 2005 based on the dyno numbers that FP published on EvoM for a minimally modded car, and turned out disappointed with the real world results. When the EvoM masses condemned FP for misleading dyno numbers, Robert@FP responded on here:
"If any of you think that you can do an AEM tune up as good as Tym Switzer, you should have taken the blue pill from Morphious and woke up back in your bed instead of following the rabbit down the hole. We went to Tym because he has always been the guy that leaves NOTHING on the table when it comes to make power."
That infuriated me when I first read it because it was so inconsistent with prior statements promoting the turbo and the results on "stock cams", etc., and I haven't forgotten it. Now you are saying that your White numbers are not ringer max HP runs and we should expect to do better. I'll believe it when I see it."
"When we publish dyno runs of our cars they are replicatable results that can be achieved by anyone, not ringer max HP runs. You should be able to do better than us."
The one that elicited the first such reply from EVO8LTW:
"A lot of people, including me, bought the white rabbit in 2005 based on the dyno numbers that FP published on EvoM for a minimally modded car, and turned out disappointed with the real world results. When the EvoM masses condemned FP for misleading dyno numbers, Robert@FP responded on here:
"If any of you think that you can do an AEM tune up as good as Tym Switzer, you should have taken the blue pill from Morphious and woke up back in your bed instead of following the rabbit down the hole. We went to Tym because he has always been the guy that leaves NOTHING on the table when it comes to make power."
That infuriated me when I first read it because it was so inconsistent with prior statements promoting the turbo and the results on "stock cams", etc., and I haven't forgotten it. Now you are saying that your White numbers are not ringer max HP runs and we should expect to do better. I'll believe it when I see it."
One of the best turbo related posts I've seen. Thanks Grocmax
This was with the 10.5 turbine housing, correct?
If you don't mind, could you respond to my post about the trim and how it affects total airflow.
I think 9sec9 is going to make some sick torque with this turbo. Kind of surprised on the peak power though as the white rabbit seemed to make quite a bit more peak power then this turbo? Also, if compared to the green dynocharts on FP's website, this turbo spools about 300 RPM later then the green. Green vs. white vs. stock, same dyno, same car would really sort things out.
This was with the 10.5 turbine housing, correct?
If you don't mind, could you respond to my post about the trim and how it affects total airflow.
I think 9sec9 is going to make some sick torque with this turbo. Kind of surprised on the peak power though as the white rabbit seemed to make quite a bit more peak power then this turbo? Also, if compared to the green dynocharts on FP's website, this turbo spools about 300 RPM later then the green. Green vs. white vs. stock, same dyno, same car would really sort things out.
Last edited by 03whitegsr; Jul 2, 2008 at 07:09 PM.
