Whose fault is it???
It seems to me that Dave's right on this one, like he's ever really wrong 
The spark plug was the 'effect' but the 'cause' most certainly came from tuning or lack there of being done on this customers car.
For people to blame the customer is just silly - if all customers were so informed then why the heck would they need a tuning shop...? If an item such as a spark plug has the ability to cause catastrophic damage, then it should be one of the first items that the tuner checks before they went about the tuning process...
my .02
The spark plug was the 'effect' but the 'cause' most certainly came from tuning or lack there of being done on this customers car.For people to blame the customer is just silly - if all customers were so informed then why the heck would they need a tuning shop...? If an item such as a spark plug has the ability to cause catastrophic damage, then it should be one of the first items that the tuner checks before they went about the tuning process...
my .02
The tuner is at fault. The engine detonated and the plug was burnt off. That plug works in the EVO9 very well. The tuner was not doing his job and the engine detonated and burnt off a plug. I don't care if there was a candle wick in there, it is the tuners job to monitor WTF he is being paid to do and obviously who ever the guy tuning the car was, was NOT doing his job.
before I explain this, this honestly absolutely has nothing to do with me or us at NRG Tech. Its about a guy I know and another shop I know. anyways heres the story...
Joe Shmoe buys 90% of his parts from Shop A and they do 100% of the labor and tuning for him. They even work on his buddies STi as well, 100% of the parts and labor and tuning. Well Joe doesnt live close to Shop A so he goes to shop F to get some spark plugs and oil filters when he needs them because its 10 mins from his house. Joe is running pump/meth on a HTA 35R making a claimed 575whp on a Dyno Dynamics (but thats with a 20% correction factor). Joe has been running the same NGK plugs for months and months without a problem after switching from Denso iridiums because they werent lasting as long. Anyways, Joe decides he wants his car to get a full max tune, basically 40 psi on the HTA so he drops his car off at his usual Shop A. Well a few days later, while hes home over 100 miles away, Shop A calls and says "you had the wrong spark plugs in your car, and oneof them broke off and caused your motor to blow. The plug fell into the cylinder, cracked the piston, and theres no compression at all in that cylinder. So They claim that Shop F screwed him over by selling him the incorrect plugs that Shop A does NOT and Never did want him to use. They claim it is not there fault the motor blew, but only Shop F's fault for selling the incorrect plugs. Poor Joe doesnt know THAT much about cars so he isnt sure what to believe other then that because he trusts Shop A and decides to eat the bill. It was only found out by Shop A that these plugs were in the car AFTER the car blew up, they though the original kind of Denso was still being used. Whose Fault is it?
Joe Shmoe buys 90% of his parts from Shop A and they do 100% of the labor and tuning for him. They even work on his buddies STi as well, 100% of the parts and labor and tuning. Well Joe doesnt live close to Shop A so he goes to shop F to get some spark plugs and oil filters when he needs them because its 10 mins from his house. Joe is running pump/meth on a HTA 35R making a claimed 575whp on a Dyno Dynamics (but thats with a 20% correction factor). Joe has been running the same NGK plugs for months and months without a problem after switching from Denso iridiums because they werent lasting as long. Anyways, Joe decides he wants his car to get a full max tune, basically 40 psi on the HTA so he drops his car off at his usual Shop A. Well a few days later, while hes home over 100 miles away, Shop A calls and says "you had the wrong spark plugs in your car, and oneof them broke off and caused your motor to blow. The plug fell into the cylinder, cracked the piston, and theres no compression at all in that cylinder. So They claim that Shop F screwed him over by selling him the incorrect plugs that Shop A does NOT and Never did want him to use. They claim it is not there fault the motor blew, but only Shop F's fault for selling the incorrect plugs. Poor Joe doesnt know THAT much about cars so he isnt sure what to believe other then that because he trusts Shop A and decides to eat the bill. It was only found out by Shop A that these plugs were in the car AFTER the car blew up, they though the original kind of Denso was still being used. Whose Fault is it?
1. Highlighted. You have to pay to play. "FULL MAX TUNE" on 40psi with meth injection is the customer's own responsibility. He asked for it. He should have been well aware of the risks.
2. Drops the car off and leaves. He was not there to witness said event.
3. Most shops have a ZERO LIABILITY dyno waiver for many reasons. The customer signs acknowledging how the car has to be tested and driven.
4. Flip flopping and intermingling shops. Just this week we pulled 2 sets of 5 heat range "Evo" plugs out of long reach Evo 9 engines. If you don't trust in your facility to know your car inside and out, then find some place that you can.
5. 40psi on methanol injection and unknown build for "MAX TUNE" as requested by the customer.
6. 40psi on methanol injection and unknown build for "MAX TUNE" as requested by the customer.
7. 40psi on methanol injection and unknown build for "MAX TUNE" as requested by the customer.
Nuf said right here, no one is responsible except the owner. Your friend really put a lot of trust in a shop to take care of his car considering he isnt too keen on tuning/modding and such. This is one of the reason you should always understand what is being done so you can understand why something failed in events like this.
The owner.
When dealing with 2 different shops, he needs to document everything that each shop does and exchange that info. with the other shop whether it's relevant or not. This is just another reason why:
a) You should work on your own car or;
b) Choose a shop of your liking to work on it and stick with them since they will know everything that has been done to the vehicle and full responsibility falls with them if anything ****s up that was the result of their workmanship.
When dealing with 2 different shops, he needs to document everything that each shop does and exchange that info. with the other shop whether it's relevant or not. This is just another reason why:
a) You should work on your own car or;
b) Choose a shop of your liking to work on it and stick with them since they will know everything that has been done to the vehicle and full responsibility falls with them if anything ****s up that was the result of their workmanship.
I agree. Stick with one shop. At least they will have a history of what has been done to the customer's car.
I would have to blame the shop. Should they have not check every last bit of that motor before they tuned it? Also I blame the owner. He should have told the shop what spark plugs he was using if that shop didn't install them.
Joe lives 2 hours from his main shop, he cant get spark plugs from anywhere else???
And Scott, the car was being tuned on C16, not pump/meth this time. Sorry for not being clear
I guess the shop tuning the car should ignore detonation on logs even if it is because the plugs are bad?
And Scott, the car was being tuned on C16, not pump/meth this time. Sorry for not being clear
I guess the shop tuning the car should ignore detonation on logs even if it is because the plugs are bad?
The tuner is at fault. The engine detonated and the plug was burnt off. That plug works in the EVO9 very well. The tuner was not doing his job and the engine detonated and burnt off a plug. I don't care if there was a candle wick in there, it is the tuners job to monitor WTF he is being paid to do and obviously who ever the guy tuning the car was, was NOT doing his job.
I agree 80% With david, although not knowing if its the wrong plug is part of the other 20%.
Also with what ttp said about the 40psi of boost. If TUNER A Didnt htink the car could handle it, its the tuners fault for not informing joe that his car couldnt handle it. a good tuner would just take any job on n make it happen without having it somewhat safe.
The only way I see to settle this is for the customer to take the shop to a compitent tech that he can truly trust (seems he may not be able to trust either shop right now) and have the engine pulled apart to see if the spark plug did indeed cause the problem.
Like was mentioned though, the tuner should have been paying more attention to the logs. Regardless of wether he was working some detionation out when the engine blew if the tuner had done 2 pulls and was still seeing an excess amount of detonation he should have been able to see something was messed up and needed to be fixed.
Like was mentioned though, the tuner should have been paying more attention to the logs. Regardless of wether he was working some detionation out when the engine blew if the tuner had done 2 pulls and was still seeing an excess amount of detonation he should have been able to see something was messed up and needed to be fixed.
The tuner is at fault. The engine detonated and the plug was burnt off. That plug works in the EVO9 very well. The tuner was not doing his job and the engine detonated and burnt off a plug. I don't care if there was a candle wick in there, it is the tuners job to monitor WTF he is being paid to do and obviously who ever the guy tuning the car was, was NOT doing his job.
I believe the owner is at fault.
when you play with fire, sometimes you get burned......no pun intended.
he's trying to lay down the law & his **** broke...
if the tuner was behind the keyboard & knew there was a different spec plug in the motor........then the tuner should have investigated before even firing up the engine.....
if the owners tells shop A about the plugs after the fact.....see sentance 1.
who knows the condition of the plugs that went into the motor. was the plug dropped before being installed? plug gap?
need logged data to know for sure, otherwise its all speculation.......
detonating on c-16
when you play with fire, sometimes you get burned......no pun intended.
he's trying to lay down the law & his **** broke...
if the tuner was behind the keyboard & knew there was a different spec plug in the motor........then the tuner should have investigated before even firing up the engine.....
if the owners tells shop A about the plugs after the fact.....see sentance 1.
who knows the condition of the plugs that went into the motor. was the plug dropped before being installed? plug gap?
need logged data to know for sure, otherwise its all speculation.......
detonating on c-16
Well im going Old School on this..if you break it..you bought it.
Second as a builder....you should tell your customer to stick with what works...and tell them If you change something then inform your tuner what was changed since the last tune. Its one of the MAIN reasons you get a tune is because something was changed.
Second as a builder....you should tell your customer to stick with what works...and tell them If you change something then inform your tuner what was changed since the last tune. Its one of the MAIN reasons you get a tune is because something was changed.
The tuner is responsible for the damage to the car while it's in their hands...maybe not LEGALLY, but it's still the tuners fault. I'd love to see pictures of the pistons and plug to see what actually failed.
Tuner's at fault.
Who does a 40psi tune and doesn't check the conditions of the plugs/oil levels/anti-freeze levels?? Isn't that the basic walk around before you jump on the dyno and go for the gusto? During the pulls, sparkplugs don't just fall apart--they give you signs of failure that ONLY the tuner can see since he is the ONLY one communicating with the ECU.
Man, what I would give to have a look at the logs from that dyno session.
Who does a 40psi tune and doesn't check the conditions of the plugs/oil levels/anti-freeze levels?? Isn't that the basic walk around before you jump on the dyno and go for the gusto? During the pulls, sparkplugs don't just fall apart--they give you signs of failure that ONLY the tuner can see since he is the ONLY one communicating with the ECU.
Man, what I would give to have a look at the logs from that dyno session.