Well there you have it another opinion from a sharp tuner.

Might have jumped the gun on this one.

 

I have tested there manifolds on many different conditions and I have PROVEN they work. There is no speculation as to what it can do, I have seen first hand many times what they can do.


I have posted data on this as well.

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...in+scroll+data

Take a look. As for Mr. Norris it sounds to me like he just has a bad taste in his mouth for Full Race.

1. Does not reduce lag due to TS? Small turbine housing will help to increase spool but trying to say that twin scroll will not increase spool is just being childish.

2.Does not make that much power? There is a thread on here where they made 800+ on a TS 42r? Not that much?

3. Very expensive for something that does not work as it should? It is expensive BUT the build quality and fitment is second to none. Robotic Tig is fantastic.

4. Very little testing? There is more engineering in there product than 99% of the cars out there so trying to say little testing is just plain ignorant.

5.Already went over this one. Once again good products are expensive and you pay it for a reason.

6.Difficult for a road car? I have seen plenty of street cars with these kits and they work great.

I dont need to get into this it just sounds like Mr. Norris has something against Full Race, which maybe he should as they produce top quality kits that rival most other turbo kit manufacturers.

Either way back to cam testing,

Mitch M

 

Sorry if this is usually already known with that turbo (tried to look it up quickly without success), but what size housing are you using?

 

1.00 T4 hotside.

 

I am not trying to discredit Simon Norris' overall experience, but it does sound like Simon Norris was referring to somewhat limited experience with a particularly undersized TS turbine housing, maybe with earlier versions with less than ideal sized housings.

If you read the most recent statements from Geoff and other externally wastegated TS advocates like Ted B and DTM, they all seem to support using very large T4 housings whenever possible (on larger turbos, i.e. 30R and up), and this contradicts Norris' statements, at least in reference to Full Race kits and what Geoff recommends now.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that until recently, larger TS housings (especially T4) were rather scarce, and even those that were hard to come by were less than ideal due to the ports still being too small. Despite this, there was a lot of enthusiasm to try TS before there were larger TS housings easily available.

Should everyone have played it safe and not bothered until there were more larger TS housings available? Would there even be larger TS housings as available as they are now without the demand generated by the use of these TS setups? I don't think so. It was (and still is) technology undergoing development.
Now there are more available, and it has shown to make better use of TS setups.
On the other hand, the smaller housings show good spool on TS, but less top end peak power. Peak power people complain. Then the larger housing TS setup show good peak power, and people still complain, even though it seems to be the best spool possible on a non-HTA 35R, 40R, and 42R, mostly about the peak #s in relation to cost. Go figure...
I may be wrong, but this is what I have gathered from my reading.

 

Kind of unfamiliar with some of the turbo acronyms but what does HTA stand for?

 

Nobody knows but I'll guess High Turbine Area, fp takes a billet or borg warner billet wheel that has greater area than the regular garret from AFAIK, could be wrong

Scorke

 

Is that video on a 2.0 Evo(very impressive if it is)? If it is, how much power did it make up top on race gas? What does the car trap(mph)? Have you had any back to back testing on the same car setup to confirm that your 40r kit will outspool and make more power than the 35r cars? Does that include the Buschur HTA 3 amigo cars trapping high 140's and his badbish trapping 155mph?

I think those are the types of questions and testing that Norris is referring to on #4, when you made the TS 40r vs 35r claims over a year ago.
"4) Very little/zero testing before releasing prodcuts that may or may not work. However it is always claimed they are the best."

Buschur tested a built 2.3 FR TS 40r car and I think he posted that he was impressed by the spool, but he did not post the up top results. To me it says he didn't want to start a war with his findings.

 

You are correct.
I have found almost zero data to contradict anything that Geoff has said from day one.

 

thanks for the vote of confidence, its good to know that the winning pike's peak team approves

dont really have anything to add


I agree we should more clearly emphasize our recommendations (this is what we list on our site). However, when a customer knows what he/she wants, we will make it. Allowing customers to custom spec their turbine housing is an option we have always offered so when someone calls us and requests a particular configuration (in this case the .78 a/r gt35R which was a special order) we will supply that, despite our recommending the 1.06.

Norris has very little experience with our turbo kits, only testing that one car. The twinscroll 35 and twinscroll 40 kits we manufacture are some of the best performing turbokits we have ever manufactured, for any platform.

The twinscroll 30 is a great kit, intended for mostly stock engines. If used on a built motor the turbine housing becomes a bit restrictive, although there are many people using it with excellent results on 2.3 and 2.4L engines.


you got it right. go figure is the conclusion ive come to regarding the anti-twinscroll mentality on this forum...


did you read that entire thread, or my response to Mr. Norris? our products are tested against others fairly often, just because it isnt posted all over the forums doesnt mean its not happening... in some cases people just dont like to post that they just got owned (like two weekends ago, when evodan's twinscroll 35R walked the FP red car in ohio, on video...) or when a time attack team changes their setup to ours and cleans up their laptimes, but they dont want to give the old turbokit company a bad rep. Long story short, you can perceive this however you like, but as ive said in the past and will continue to say, you will not find a turbokit that generates a better powerband than a full-race twinscroll kit.


that is probably not correct since it uses the 35R turbine wheel

think what you want, but every unbiased tuner who has experience with our kits on a properly built/tuned car would agree that our turbokits walk almost anything else. Sean Ivey, Mark Shead, Jeff Evns, Tony Palo, Antony @ Indigo, Alec Er, Joe Simpson, Jester John, Tony @ UMS, the list goes on and on. These guys have tested everything out there, and all would agree that twinscroll definitely works very well

here is evodan's twinscroll 35R dynoplot from the buschur "heartbreaker" dyno with 100% 93 octane pump gas, on an almost entirely stock engine. (tons of room left in it)



compare it to the other buschur plots on a similar setup

 

that was pump gas 93oct flashed tuned 26psi geoff. stock block stock head other then cams stock ecu stock maf stock seats stock shift knob stock front bumper.

i just bought a intake manifold so im hoping it will help keep the top end pulling higher and longer...

im going to the track on the 7th to blow up or run 10s.. then im putting the manifold on and going back. then im doing what you and i have planed.

i still cant beleave people are still so uninformed and have yet to see why TS is what it is. i guess you really just need to drive one to know.

 

what intake manifold did you end up getting, also is 440 hp enough to run 10's???

 

DI with hypertune TB.

Soon to find out. but i say 444/362 on his dyno yes. last time i ran last year i maid 414dynojet on a different setup and went 11.2

 

ok cool. Sounds good man Yeah It does seem like Buschur's dyno reads 13-15 percent lower than most dynojets.

evidence of that is Big Al's Dynoflash car. made like 1016 on his dyno which is a dynojet. he came down to buschur's dyno and made in the 860 range. I know there are prolly variables in that such as elevation, temperature etc... but that still kinda proves that Buschur's dyno reads lower that most dynojets

 

Like Geoff said, just because people don't post results all over the internet doesn't mean it doesn't work or hasn't been tested.

I've been looking for a very long time for the ultimate street combo (like everyone else). Being NON biased toward ANY tuner/tuning house or any workshop because I’m in Australia it’s opened my eyes a little to see people's true colours.

So many people become fan boys because of marketing techniques and the “sheep” type of mentality. If you spend the time to look around at the hard data and cipher though all the opinions you will find twinscroll works, weather it be on an 4G63, EJ25 or SR20. There is plenty of hard data available that proves TS works and works VERY well when set up correctly.

When a workshop or individual say XYZ about someone else’s product that doesn’t mean you should take it as gospel, if you respect them and trust them, great but be aware of their under lying agenda. Lets say ‘EVIL-Workshop’ has the best GT35r kit out there and everyone uses it and LOVES it. It has probably taken a massive amount of development and time to get all the parts working in harmony from the built block, heads, cams, intake etc, but once they have the working combo is fantastic! Then ‘EVIL-Workshop’ tests a twinscroll setup and don’t like it, they probably didn’t spend the time to find the combo that made it shine like they did on there own kit. It’s just an example and take it as you will.

I think Full-Race has been beaten on and if you actually spend the time and find out the data for yourself you will see. Granted a lot of people don’t have the time and I suppose this is where a lot of the ‘opinions’ come from. Full-Race stuff works, get the right combo and you won't be happier with the powerband.

On a side note I have never seen Geoff act anything but professionally on EvoM, NASIOC and IWSTI, not once have I seen him say a bad word about a competitor’s product or a person. It’s rare to see that these days.