Any of you guys with any combination of the works package have any recorded 1/4 mile times to compare? That is one of the major areas of caution with this package, which I am purchasing tommorrow in SF, T Body and flash. Vishnu has all of the numbers from the magazines, no objective numbers on Works equipment that I know of. I am attracted tot he greater margin of safety dialed intot he programming however. Evn 20-25 HP would be outstanding.

Percy

 

Why do you feel our programming offers a lower safety margin?

shiv

PS. All the acceleration testing in the magazines where done before we had boost control working in the XEDE. Expect a few tenths improvement with boost control functional.

 

The piggy back over rides the ECU settings right? The reflash simply resets stock settings but can still pull timng if needed etc...
I could be wrong but piggybacks are overrides on the ECU right?

 

I am leaning towards Visnu for its greater margin of safety. Works is running a 11.5-12:1 AFR and Vishnu is as rich or richer than stock less than 10:1. The ECU still functions as ususal -the piggy back just tells its some white lies like give me a little more boost here and some more spark advance there by chaning the imputs to the ECU.

 

One things for sure, no one can ever fault Shiv for not being vigilant, and ready to respond in timely fashion!


N10S

 

I was mistaken. Obviously Vishnu offers a greater margin of safety regardingt his issue. However...I have no clue when I can actually purchase your products due to the long back-log on your supply, and I don't really think I want a piggy-back. I think the works A-F ratios are well within the safe range from my research. If I'm wrong and going to blow up my engine, I'd like to know otherwise.

Percy

 

If you are driving on the road or 1/4 mile both products should be plenty safe. Not sure about track driving when you run WOT for an hour+ at a time - things get really hot - IC is heatsoked and the motor is baking hot!

My big question is why did Shiv keep the AFR so rich if 11.5:1 is still safe? Shiv could have gotten another 10 ponies by doing the easy lean it out mod. This leads me to believe that 11.5:1 isn't so safe. Seems like it is common for turbo cars to go very rich in the higher RPMs.

 

There are many ways to make power. Each has its tradeoffs. For example, before implementation of boost control, we had to make power with the XEDE by running substantially leaner than stock. This meant that we also had to run less ignition advance at higher engine speeds since we gave up some of the knock resistance that the extra fueling provided. Less advance with leaner a/f ratios means higher exhaust gas temps, all things equal. This may or may not be an issue depending upon what conditions the car is driven in.

With RPM dependant boost control we can improve engine VE in the ranges where extra boost helps. But we can also run stock-like levels of boost where the engine is knock limited. Being able to control all three variables (fuel, spark advance and boost), we can make power with different relative combinations at different engine speeds/loads. This is basically what we do all day on the dyno. In other words, we're not constrained by any variables. From our road racing experience, we also appreciate the benefits of thermal management. And running more advance with more fuel, all things equal, is going to run substantially cooler than less advance and less fuel. That extra 10 hp one may get on the dyno (from running more aggressive fuel curves) will only be there for a lap or so until the system heatsoaks and begins to knock retard. These cars take a big power hit when intake temps rise, running on pump gas. Running on race gas, of course, it's another matter. If you download our pump gas and race gas Stage 1 XEDE maps, and compare them, you can see the differences in fuel, spark and boost mapping.

Cheers,
shiv

 

very interesting. From a theoretical point of view, why wouldn't you run the higher boost and also run it lean both at the same time ?? Wouldn't that make you even more power?
It seems like higher boost and lean a/f ratios don't have to me mutually exclusive ?? (unless your running 91 octane?)

 

Unless your making a chip for the entire world to use safely

 

Both leaner a/f ratios and higher boost pressures result in having to run less ignition advance. There comes a point where you start falling off the steep part of the MBT curve where every additional degree of retard yields a huge loss in thermal efficiency. This wasted heat goes out of the exhaust system (and generates higher EGTs) as well as into the cooling system (making cars more overheat prone under racing conditions). Running a/f ratios richer offers in-cylinder chemical cooling which allows for sufficient ignition advance. None of this is an issue of dyno queens or drag strip cars that run 10 seconds at a time on race gas. But for a street car that can be driven at the track, lap after lap after lap without getting slower and slower and slower, all these issues need to be managed.

my 2c,
Shiv

 

I agree with this quite a bit. I used a different vendor for management for my WRX in the past and regretted it. I had good power for bursts, but very questionable EGTs at high rpm. To me, repeatable good power and longevity of the engine (Vishnu and WORKS both seem to provide this) is a significantly wiser choice for your $30,000 car than just a *****-out AFC tune which may procure 5-10whp more, but is running on the ragged edge of reliability.

New generation fuel solutions like the Xede and the WORKS reflash (an all in one system) that can manage boost, timing, A:F- ALL dynamically through the entire rpm band are the only way to go, IMO.

 

Sorry your thread got JACKED... I'm trying to get to the strip middle of next week (flash only). I'll let you know how it turns out if you can wait that long.

 

That's what I like about Shiv =) He explains. I'm sure there're many other lurkers out there reading tid-bits from Shiv in these matters and giving a nod of experienced approval. The points he talks about are all very true for the person that is looking to ride the line of compromise in a street car.

(OT - why can't there just be a ROM style of black box that we can just plug inline (harness) that would give the desired ECU results for cheap? - like an exhaust, just "plug it in" and don't mess, kinda like the old VW 16V black box that altered fuel)