Unlike NA cars, making ITBs work with a turbo setup, especially a speed density turbo setup, is a tricky matter. This is why this sort of thing is uncommon in that application.

Just FYI.

 

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The top center fuel injector seams very logical on an NA car with the negative pressure in the intake manifold and draw on each runner... Seeing as how on a Forced induction engine has positive intake plenum pressure and air moving across the first cylinder isn’t it hard to control which cylinder is getting what amount of fuel?

BTW that’s one beautiful insight!

 

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I was at their shop a couple weeks ago picking up some fueling components and saw the runners after cnc'ing them on their new 5 axis mill. Impressive machine that is, which can really open up the possibilities of what can be machined!

It has been nice seeing the progress first hand of what the folks at Kinsler are doing:thumbup! I sent them a message letting them now this thread exists in case they wanted to add anything at this point. But this is a good thread for people to see what is coming and can be done!

What really sets them apart aside from design standpoint is how this manfiold can be tailored to anyones needs...being single t/b, ITB's, different throttle size diameters and more!

 

Simon Norris already mapped this on his demo car:




I believe he said it did not make the power he expected though and he thought maybe the plenum size was too small.

I don't particular understand how you do with speed density but I think I remember my tuner saying it was doable.

 

It is, but there are a few headaches involved. Actually, it is an issue I am working to resolve right now in another platform. We've improved the situation, but it is not completely resolved.


I didn't say it couldn't be done, I said it is a tricky proposition, and it is. If one attempts it, he'll come to understand why soon enough.

FWIW, I am old enough to remember the Menard (Buick) V6, Ilmor V8, and Cosworth DFX shootouts at the Brickyard very well. But I digress. The question isn't if, but how. What I would like to know is if they resolved the obvious MAP signal accuracy issues physically, electronically, or via a combination of both.

 

/\ That is a "out of the box" deisign that HKS did....apples to oranges to what Kinsler is doing. I believe the HKS used barrel valves but don't quote me on that.

A ITB setup with MAP is definately doable. One key aspect is about how one creatively picks up the pressure signal for the MAP sensor.

 

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There is another company called Elbow Racing from Australia that has a intake manifold identical to that HKS one which i dont want to flood this post with other peoples products but going off all the testing done by TrinaBabe was the best design having a separate cone going into the plenum as far as even distribution. Problem is there is only really one software program out there which the big boys use (GM, Mitsu ect.) with a yearly license price of $50K that will get you as close to real world results as possible. I believe in TrinaBabe thread he used CFD modeling for thermal dynamics as well as flow to come to the design you see above. It would be nice if someone could get there hands on that license for a little while to see how things work out. Problem is $50K for license plus say around $20K-$30K for production costs is allot of overhead to recoup on selling intake manifolds!

On a side note i think Kinsler will figure out what works the best and go with that design. They never have made a product to my knowledge that has been second in any aspect. Expect i nice price tag when they are finished but also expect a new level of innovation to come along with it!

Chris

 

What ecu are you using if you don't mind?

 

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The one pictured doesn't have throttle plates in the runners at all. You can configure it however you want. If you want to run a conventional throttle body on the front of the manifold that works fine. If you want the plates in the runners, then you can do that.

The gains from the injector placement in the top of the plenum are largely due to the extra cooling of the fuel.

I hope whoever is lucky enough to test these knows what they are doing with fueling and has a good cylinder head on the car. Most of the heads floating around for the 4G are mediocre at best.

 

Yep in comparison to a B or K series head offcourse!
The EVO community knows how to compensate for that though!
Five and seven bar map sensors were invented for 4G's.

 

There is no secrets to what works. Injectors mounted on top of air horns cool charged air and thats where the increase in HP comes in.
There are many different ways to set up a manifold that works well. The problem is that not everyone uses it in the same way! Some road race and some drag race and ideal manifold for those applications are two completly different manifolds.
HKS did their home work when it comes to their LM675 project. That manifold gives incredible response and even air distribution. The draw back is that it doesnt flow to well up top but agian, it was never intended to do so since its for a for a road race application!
Its not that hard to setup a ITB's with foced induction you just have to get a little creative. Ted just look at HPF kit for E46!