ams Moustache Bar Eliminator
Oct 10, 2009, 07:51 PM
#31
In case you didn't notice, I didn't start this thread. I DID add to the conversation concerning a known safety issue on your ORIGINAL moustache bar. I also mentioned that I had no knowledge of how the replacement was holding up. Your comments of how to conduct R&D seem to be lacking on such a critical piece. As a matter of fact, I have a post where you said you had no idea how much noise it added to the drivetrain because you hadn't even driven your car yet. This was while you were advertising the pieces for sale. I stand 100% by my comments. I
Oct 10, 2009, 07:59 PM
#32
The mustache bar was designed and tested on our black car which also had solid side differential supports. I didn't drive that car, ever other than on and off the dyno. Please get all the facts straight before trying to further make a mess.
No you didn't start this thread, your good friend covr4 jumped in, you posted directly after him. It's very odd that on the same day, two threads with mention of mustache bar in them had him post first and you right after, not much of a coincedence if you ask me.
The KEY to keeping the rear end in the car is the side diff supports. You could remove the mustache bar from the car completely if you have the proper side diff supports.
No you didn't start this thread, your good friend covr4 jumped in, you posted directly after him. It's very odd that on the same day, two threads with mention of mustache bar in them had him post first and you right after, not much of a coincedence if you ask me.
The KEY to keeping the rear end in the car is the side diff supports. You could remove the mustache bar from the car completely if you have the proper side diff supports.
Oct 10, 2009, 08:12 PM
#33
...and you've tested removing the rear moustache bar? How much testing, driving did you do before releasing the original? Did you notice/recall all of the units sold? Mysteriously, even my second 'original' bar didn't get replaced, yet your shop installed it in October with another original design AFTER you had failures as early as August. Time for the truth David.
Oct 10, 2009, 08:19 PM
#34
The only testing done before releasing the original was on the black car, which ran 8's and as I said, never broke cracked but had the solid diff supports. Are you not reading what I am typing? No I did not recall all the units sold, we replaced all that were damaged. I do not recall when failures started so I'm not sure how you can pull dates out of thin air. Yours broke in October when you were in Ohio having us build your signature and record list. If you have a bar that wasn't replaced you didn't give it to us to replace. The truth is being told, what more can I do but say some cracked/broke and were all replaced for free. I do not remember the month of the first one I saw break. I do remember who it was though, it was evolutionary here on EVOm. We figured his was a fluke and was caused from the way the car was set up or the extreme G's it saw autocrossing. Until we saw a few there was no concern of it being a problem, but as I have said about 4 times now they were all replaced.
Nothing here but the truth on my end, just like always.
9.57 at 145.16, that was a great day for you. The day we finished your build, the day I tuned the car, the day Trent drove it. What a great day. Great memories.
Nothing here but the truth on my end, just like always.
9.57 at 145.16, that was a great day for you. The day we finished your build, the day I tuned the car, the day Trent drove it. What a great day. Great memories.
Oct 10, 2009, 08:26 PM
#35
Yes they were. Good thing I was willing to spend huge amounts of money to help that along in a small way. The customer and his willingness to spend the money is what helps to bring other products to the market. Somehow that gets lost in translation somehow.
Oct 10, 2009, 08:31 PM
#36
That doesn't get lost ever with me. You are highly confused. My appreciation and friendship is not what failed, never has. I've never failed to keep my word, support you or the car and your goals, ever.
The path you chose had nothing to do with me or any of my actions. You should keep that in mind when you and covr4 get together to try to discredit me next time.
The path you chose had nothing to do with me or any of my actions. You should keep that in mind when you and covr4 get together to try to discredit me next time.
Oct 10, 2009, 08:48 PM
#37
So you're saying that when someone mentions the failure of a part that you designed and built, it is an attempt to discredit you? Maybe that perception alone is the issue. Customers and posters retain the right to give factual information without reservation. If you don't think that an inspection of the mentioned bar is necessary, that's only your opinion. No better, nor worse than anyone elses.
Oct 10, 2009, 08:56 PM
#38
Tom, I have no problem with someone saying there is a problem. I also have no problem standing behind it. I do have a problem with you coming out 1 year after it happened and throwing out some crap about a safety issue and your boy covr4 being involved in it too.
There has been mention in the past on EVOm of the bars cracking, it's not a problem or safety issue. The only reason your car failed like it did was the side diff support failing, end of story, end of BS. ANYONE with a half a brain, and I know you have a full brain, can see it and can see the mustache bar is not there to keep the rear diff from twisting out of the car like yours did. It's as simple as looking at AMS's kit, the kit has no way of keeping the rear diff from twisting in the car and you have never seen a side diff support ripped out of the rear subframe with someone running their MUSTACHE BAR ELIMINATER, NOTE: ELIMINATER, that means to REMOVE the mustache bar and ELIMINATE it.
Yes, ANYONE who has purchased our mustache bar can go under their car and inspect it. If it is cracked or broken just give us a call and we will replace it like I have done any others.
IF you bought your bar after October/November'ish of last year you should have no worries that's when the chassis shop changed the plating to double thickness and gussetted.
BTW, IF you have one that is broken/cracked Tom send it to me, I'll even send you a new one, you can sell it or do whatever you like with it.
There has been mention in the past on EVOm of the bars cracking, it's not a problem or safety issue. The only reason your car failed like it did was the side diff support failing, end of story, end of BS. ANYONE with a half a brain, and I know you have a full brain, can see it and can see the mustache bar is not there to keep the rear diff from twisting out of the car like yours did. It's as simple as looking at AMS's kit, the kit has no way of keeping the rear diff from twisting in the car and you have never seen a side diff support ripped out of the rear subframe with someone running their MUSTACHE BAR ELIMINATER, NOTE: ELIMINATER, that means to REMOVE the mustache bar and ELIMINATE it.
Yes, ANYONE who has purchased our mustache bar can go under their car and inspect it. If it is cracked or broken just give us a call and we will replace it like I have done any others.
IF you bought your bar after October/November'ish of last year you should have no worries that's when the chassis shop changed the plating to double thickness and gussetted.
BTW, IF you have one that is broken/cracked Tom send it to me, I'll even send you a new one, you can sell it or do whatever you like with it.
Oct 10, 2009, 08:58 PM
#39
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So you're saying that when someone mentions the failure of a part that you designed and built, it is an attempt to discredit you? Maybe that perception alone is the issue. Customers and posters retain the right to give factual information without reservation. If you don't think that an inspection of the mentioned bar is necessary, that's only your opinion. No better, nor worse than anyone elses.
I started reading this post from the beginning. The first thing I saw was the missing bolt on the differential. After readind your caption I said to myself that the bar broke do to a chain of events not caused by the moustache bar. But was infact broken by someone's neglect to install or tighten said bolt. So technically your post isn't factual.
Oct 10, 2009, 10:41 PM
#40
Great posts covr4 and 9sec9. Once again though important information has been left out.
Yes, some of the original mustache bars cracked/broke in the center support. All of which were replaced free of charge. I have the very first one on my RS, it has no broken or been replaced for reference though.
In 9sec9's case he is not telling the entire story. He originally installed our side diff. supports and did not like the fitment. While doing so he cross thread the bolt that holds the side diff support in place. As you can see the bolt in the side stock diff support is missing. That is because it was stripped and pulled the bolt out of the threads.
Yes, some of the original mustache bars cracked/broke in the center support. All of which were replaced free of charge. I have the very first one on my RS, it has no broken or been replaced for reference though.
In 9sec9's case he is not telling the entire story. He originally installed our side diff. supports and did not like the fitment. While doing so he cross thread the bolt that holds the side diff support in place. As you can see the bolt in the side stock diff support is missing. That is because it was stripped and pulled the bolt out of the threads.
You designed, manufactured, and offered for sale a critical suspension part.
A number of people had the part installed and then the part failed on their cars.
If the problem had been with something that one person did, it would not have shown up on the others, unless they all had the same side diff support failure. Thus, your excuse that it was something unique to 9sec9's car is unsound.
I stand by my statements. When you design and have a substitute part manfactured, call it your part, and offer it for sale, it's your responsibility if it goes south because it wasn't engineered or built to withstand the stresses that it's expected use put on it. If someone who has not seen this thread is hurt or injured because of such a failure, you have a big problem. Hell, even Al would have trouble losing on those facts...
It would be smart to be take a very close look at your "new" bar, too, given that history. How do you know the new bar won't have a similar failure rate in the future?
Do you have engineering analysis to back up the material and thickness you chose on either the old or the new bar?
Did you do any failure analysis on a built part to see what stress it would take?
What testing did you do before offering it for sale?
Don't assume that I'm just out to cause you problems. I've only spoken to 9sec9 once in the last year, to offer condolences for his mother's passing. If you are thinking at all about this issue, you would thank me for potentially saving you your business, house, and a lot of trouble. Being a defendant in a product liability lawsuits is not a recreational activity. But it's sure not as bad as being the person who got hurt or killed because he relied on someone's "expertise" to build a part he thought was safe when it wasn't...
Oct 11, 2009, 12:50 AM
#41
The KEY to keeping the rear end in the car is the side diff supports. You could remove the mustache bar from the car completely if you have the proper side diff supports.
This statement is so incorrect it makes me want to throw up. The front mounts have no leverage to keep diff from twisting. The arms are very short. The rear bar has the job of keeping the diff from twisting. The longer the arms the better. Did we forget how long the dsm rear mount bar is? Its twice the length of the evo. That long bar is very effective at keeping diff from twisting. So much so that the factory 2G cars have a single side mount for the front half.
If you want to break a stubborn nut loose you use a long breaker bar, not a short one. The front mounts on an evo have very short arms and as such have not enough leverage to keep diff from twisting.
This statement is so incorrect it makes me want to throw up. The front mounts have no leverage to keep diff from twisting. The arms are very short. The rear bar has the job of keeping the diff from twisting. The longer the arms the better. Did we forget how long the dsm rear mount bar is? Its twice the length of the evo. That long bar is very effective at keeping diff from twisting. So much so that the factory 2G cars have a single side mount for the front half.
If you want to break a stubborn nut loose you use a long breaker bar, not a short one. The front mounts on an evo have very short arms and as such have not enough leverage to keep diff from twisting.
Oct 11, 2009, 07:25 AM
#43
cov4r4, you and Tom have no reading comprehension. First off, TOM is the only person who had a failure like the pictures he posted, the ONLY one. It was from a bolt being stripped on the side diff support. End of story there. The other bars that cracked were replaced and no other diffs came lose from the car. I did not design or manufacture the bars, you missed that too, you can't read. We did sell them and replace the ones that cracked.
94awdcoupe, you are incorrect. Here is a link for you and the rest of the people who have no idea what the mustache bar does:
http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/A...mance.com.html
That's AMS's mustache bar eliminator, now explain to me about that long lever again please and how it holds the diff in the car..........................yes, thank you, case closed.
Fathouse, if you have one of our bars just take a look under the car at the diff. It's hard to describe the difference, I could take a picture at the shop Monday and post it. IF your bar is cracked, just give us a call and we'll replace it. The new bars where the plating is on the diff are over doulbe the thickness of the original, which was a single layer of mild steel plate. They also have some additional re-enforcement built into the edges. As I said earlier none of the new bars have cracked.
94awdcoupe, you are incorrect. Here is a link for you and the rest of the people who have no idea what the mustache bar does:
http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/A...mance.com.html
That's AMS's mustache bar eliminator, now explain to me about that long lever again please and how it holds the diff in the car..........................yes, thank you, case closed.
Fathouse, if you have one of our bars just take a look under the car at the diff. It's hard to describe the difference, I could take a picture at the shop Monday and post it. IF your bar is cracked, just give us a call and we'll replace it. The new bars where the plating is on the diff are over doulbe the thickness of the original, which was a single layer of mild steel plate. They also have some additional re-enforcement built into the edges. As I said earlier none of the new bars have cracked.
Oct 11, 2009, 09:50 AM
#44
Farming out the bending and welding does not help you much from a legal standpoint. They're still Buschur Racing moustache bars, offered for sale by you to the general public, and in most states in which the part was sold, you'd be responsible for failure to design, and manufacturing defects like this one. Don't believe me? Call your insurance agent and ask him how much product liability insurance would be for building a suspension part that could kill the driver, vehicle occupants, and oncoming or surrounding drivers when it fails...
Saving 13 lbs is a penny saved and a pound foolish if that's the possible outcome.
Your non-engineering logic makes me wonder why Mitsubishi factory engineers designed the rear factory moustache bar to be so hefty -- 16+ pounds of aluminium to perform a function that you say provided no real utility in the first place... One thing is certainly true -- major car companies don't spend large sums of money designing and installing costly parts that the average buyer can't see unless the company has done the engineering and determined that they are essential to the function of the vehicle...
Oct 11, 2009, 09:54 AM
#45
covr4 says: "16+ pounds of aluminium" You don't even know where the original part is or what is made of, to continue the discussion with you is useless. The original part is not made of aluminum.
Non engineering logic..............it's just a simple fact that any fool can see, you should be able to see it very clearly based on that.
Non engineering logic..............it's just a simple fact that any fool can see, you should be able to see it very clearly based on that.