Is there every going to be a company that makes bolt on turbos??
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Yes, but I do believe that a external is more flexible and ultimately allows faster spooling with a preoper turbine combo. That does not mean its for everyone, but it is for many.
I think the 57 trim is not as bad as it used to be. The 50 trim used to be the only compressor with a 3 inch major, as opposed to 2.95, but now turbonetics is making all the To4e trims, 46 through 60 with a 3 inch major. it seems to help. 1/20 of an inch matters in turbocharging.
I think the 57 trim is not as bad as it used to be. The 50 trim used to be the only compressor with a 3 inch major, as opposed to 2.95, but now turbonetics is making all the To4e trims, 46 through 60 with a 3 inch major. it seems to help. 1/20 of an inch matters in turbocharging.
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Originally posted by davidbuschur
Hmmm, I didn't realize that using an internal wastegate was cutting corners. As long as you can control the boost it makes for a much cleaner installation and much easier to package a kit.
We are also developing a turbo kit, actually it is done. We are just waiting on the manifolds to be cast.
The turbos we are going to offer are going to be Garrett units with custom cast turbine housings with internal wastegates. One thing I am sure of is we have gone faster than any other vendor out there using a 4g63 engine.
The turbo that is on our Conquest powered by a 4g63 engine is internally gated. The car has run 8.7 at 151 mph with this internally gated turbo. It is on a 2g cast iron hand ported manifold. reliability issues with this set-up is perfect. This turbo will also be available for the EVO8. We have made 650 whp with it.
Our turbo kit is going to use the stock EVO8 heat shield and will appear to be very stock to the onlooker.
Good engineering does NOT equal cutting corners.
Take care all,
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Hmmm, I didn't realize that using an internal wastegate was cutting corners. As long as you can control the boost it makes for a much cleaner installation and much easier to package a kit.
We are also developing a turbo kit, actually it is done. We are just waiting on the manifolds to be cast.
The turbos we are going to offer are going to be Garrett units with custom cast turbine housings with internal wastegates. One thing I am sure of is we have gone faster than any other vendor out there using a 4g63 engine.
The turbo that is on our Conquest powered by a 4g63 engine is internally gated. The car has run 8.7 at 151 mph with this internally gated turbo. It is on a 2g cast iron hand ported manifold. reliability issues with this set-up is perfect. This turbo will also be available for the EVO8. We have made 650 whp with it.
Our turbo kit is going to use the stock EVO8 heat shield and will appear to be very stock to the onlooker.
Good engineering does NOT equal cutting corners.
Take care all,
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
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From: nj
Originally posted by Guru
Thanks David. As always a professional and intelligent response unlike many other vendors and manufacturers. I agree that results and quality is what is important. The design will follow that. I myself prefer external gate but for some applications it just isn't necessary and increases cost.
Thanks David. As always a professional and intelligent response unlike many other vendors and manufacturers. I agree that results and quality is what is important. The design will follow that. I myself prefer external gate but for some applications it just isn't necessary and increases cost.
Dan good to see you on this forum too. Good luck with your other projects.
Dave B keep up the good work man.
Myself i am a fan of clean installs . I prefer to keep internal gates. But when room doesnt permit like on some custom kits then external is the way to go.
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From: nj
Originally posted by ItsStockOfficer
I agree with Buschur that an Internll does make a cleaner install, that is not nessecarily cutting corners. The problem I have with internals is that they make the turbo spool slower for 2 reasons.
A) The turbine housing is not nearly as nice. A 4 bolt ballistic Garret unit spools noticeably faster then a 5 bolr bastard flanged garret unit. In addition to that internals ALWAYS leak, while externals provide a perfect seal. Internals are always at the sacrifice of spool.
B)In addition to that internals ALWAYS leak, while externals provide a perfect seal. Internals are always at the sacrifice of spool.
So yes internals do have their benefits, they are cost effective and you may think of them as a cleaner install, although I like external looks, but they are NOT equal.
In addition, the conquest example is silly. The larger the turbo and the more boost you run, the less gate you will need. Its the street cars running lower boost levels that you need to control.
I agree with Buschur that an Internll does make a cleaner install, that is not nessecarily cutting corners. The problem I have with internals is that they make the turbo spool slower for 2 reasons.
A) The turbine housing is not nearly as nice. A 4 bolt ballistic Garret unit spools noticeably faster then a 5 bolr bastard flanged garret unit. In addition to that internals ALWAYS leak, while externals provide a perfect seal. Internals are always at the sacrifice of spool.
B)In addition to that internals ALWAYS leak, while externals provide a perfect seal. Internals are always at the sacrifice of spool.
So yes internals do have their benefits, they are cost effective and you may think of them as a cleaner install, although I like external looks, but they are NOT equal.
In addition, the conquest example is silly. The larger the turbo and the more boost you run, the less gate you will need. Its the street cars running lower boost levels that you need to control.
I can understand when you do a custom application when a vehicle is using stock, high compression internals and the need to have 6-8 psi max. But In this case and the experiemce this man has in tuning and running turbo's on DSMs i dont see your point.
Dont get me wrong i have read many of your posts and can agree with 50% of them but this is just your opinion. Every application is different. You should use the proper hardware for the specific application.
Last edited by perfworks; Nov 7, 2003 at 03:21 PM.
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Originally posted by perfworks
Im sorry ISO but if anything is silly here it is your post. You should edit it because "a" and "b" are the same. What better way to explain how well the wastegate operates then to see what it can do at higher boost levels. Do you know any EVO owner in there right mind that will spend the time to increase the power from his car while decreasing boost to say 8-11 psi where many claim there is a boost creep problem.
I can understand when you do a custom application when a vehicle is using stock, high compression internals and the need to have 6-8 psi max. But In this case and the experiemce this man has in tuning and running turbo's on DSMs I dont see your point.
Dont get me wrong I have read many of your posts and can agree with 50% of them but this is just your opinion. Every application is different. You should use the proper hardware for the specific application.
Im sorry ISO but if anything is silly here it is your post. You should edit it because "a" and "b" are the same. What better way to explain how well the wastegate operates then to see what it can do at higher boost levels. Do you know any EVO owner in there right mind that will spend the time to increase the power from his car while decreasing boost to say 8-11 psi where many claim there is a boost creep problem.
I can understand when you do a custom application when a vehicle is using stock, high compression internals and the need to have 6-8 psi max. But In this case and the experiemce this man has in tuning and running turbo's on DSMs I dont see your point.
Dont get me wrong I have read many of your posts and can agree with 50% of them but this is just your opinion. Every application is different. You should use the proper hardware for the specific application.
What do you mean "can do at higher boost levels"? The do less and less as boost levels increase. On some race cars they are completely eliminated.
I have not even brought up extremely low boost levels, all my arguement in favor of externals pretty much stem from refering to spool. I did point out how Buschurs example was worthless, and if you know how a wastegate operates, you know its true. It fact, if the car had 5 thousand hp, it would be even more worthless, not less. If that is too counter-intuitive, then research rather then blast me about something you simply don't understand.
And your right, B got said twice.
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From: nj
Originally posted by ItsStockOfficer
What do you mean "can do at higher boost levels"? The do less and less as boost levels increase. On some race cars they are completely eliminated.
I have not even brought up extremely low boost levels, all my arguement in favor of externals pretty much stem from refering to spool. I did point out how Buschurs example was worthless, and if you know how a wastegate operates, you know its true. It fact, if the car had 5 thousand hp, it would be even more worthless, not less. If that is too counter-intuitive, then research rather then blast me about something you simply don't understand.
And your right, B got said twice.
What do you mean "can do at higher boost levels"? The do less and less as boost levels increase. On some race cars they are completely eliminated.
I have not even brought up extremely low boost levels, all my arguement in favor of externals pretty much stem from refering to spool. I did point out how Buschurs example was worthless, and if you know how a wastegate operates, you know its true. It fact, if the car had 5 thousand hp, it would be even more worthless, not less. If that is too counter-intuitive, then research rather then blast me about something you simply don't understand.
And your right, B got said twice.
Since i "simply dont understand" how the gate operates.
Please EXPLAIN why there is a difference in spool time on the exact same turbochargers. One with external and the other internally gated. With the difference being simply the discharge housing. IF for example you mean the differential in exhaust pressure from the nozzle side to the discharge side of the wheel then i can see a slight difference. Of course the larger the pressure differential the quicker the spool. (in theory) To that extent i will agree with you. On a side note you did mention street vehicles so i took that to say low boost.
No one is blasting you. I am merely pointing out the fact that it is your opinion and many other people have a different one.
Again please go into detail about your theory so that i may understand a little better.
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Some people say internal gates will start to blow open early, causing a slower spool up. It's a pretty nice theory but it's all controlled with spring tension. You can have stiffer springs in internal gates as well as external. Unless you have a boost creep problem, I don't see much use for an external gate. They add expense and complexity to an install. Mine works fine for me and hundreads of other people so i have no complaints.
The low boost situation was brought up judt to prove that external gates will be better to control creep on a non factory equiped turbo car running low boost on a big turbo.
The low boost situation was brought up judt to prove that external gates will be better to control creep on a non factory equiped turbo car running low boost on a big turbo.
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From: nj
Originally posted by slowTsi
Some people say internal gates will start to blow open early, causing a slower spool up. It's a pretty nice theory but it's all controlled with spring tension. You can have stiffer springs in internal gates as well as external. Unless you have a boost creep problem, I don't see much use for an external gate. They add expense and complexity to an install. Mine works fine for me and hundreads of other people so i have no complaints.
The low boost situation was brought up judt to prove that external gates will be better to control creep on a non factory equiped turbo car running low boost on a big turbo.
Some people say internal gates will start to blow open early, causing a slower spool up. It's a pretty nice theory but it's all controlled with spring tension. You can have stiffer springs in internal gates as well as external. Unless you have a boost creep problem, I don't see much use for an external gate. They add expense and complexity to an install. Mine works fine for me and hundreads of other people so i have no complaints.
The low boost situation was brought up judt to prove that external gates will be better to control creep on a non factory equiped turbo car running low boost on a big turbo.
I am just curious why some havent brought up the fact that in some vehicles placement of the external cause more problems with spool than internal. I love it when i see "certain" companys offer a tubular with the gate mounted on the runner next to the head. RNR at least has it mounted near the flange and i can honestly say it must work very well just by looking at the design on the eclipse he showed.
But if you have i dentical spring pressure in the internal gate as well as the external i dont see the spool up difference unless there is some type of restriction in the flapper housing.
I would like ISO to clarify what he means. Or anyone else with the same thoughts.
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From: My name is Ananda Robinson.Stupid people should be killed. i live in Maryland
I am just curious why some havent brought up the fact that in some vehicles placement of the external cause more problems with spool than internal. I love it when i see "certain" companys offer a tubular with the gate mounted on the runner next to the head.
At lower boost levels, an internally gated turbo will spool slower because you have a huge flapper on a lever attached to a 15 psi spring. It will tend to blow open or leak because its not completely sealed unless you preload the spring. Anyone who has installed an external gate. Is aware that there is a sealing ring that goes between the gate and the flange. When you torque the gate to the flange. It loads the spring and creates a perfect seal. Internal gates work fine just not at ***** boost levels.Mr Buschurs comments are not directed to those who plan to run 10 psi with a giant turbo.
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Originally posted by Turbo-Weapon
WTF are you talking about. The best possible spoolup is with the gate completely closed PERIOD. Gate type and location is completely irrelevant to spoolup. Most of these comments are ****ing stupid. You do not upgrade to a huge turbo to then run 13 psi at WOT. Higher boost levels require much less gate then lower boost levels.
At lower boost levels, an internally gated turbo will spool slower because you have a huge flapper on a lever attached to a 15 psi spring. It will tend to blow open or leak because its not completely sealed unless you preload the spring. Anyone who has installed an external gate. Is aware that there is a sealing ring that goes between the gate and the flange. When you torque the gate to the flange. It loads the spring and creates a perfect seal. Internal gates work fine just not at ***** boost levels.Mr Buschurs comments are not directed to those who plan to run 10 psi with a giant turbo.
WTF are you talking about. The best possible spoolup is with the gate completely closed PERIOD. Gate type and location is completely irrelevant to spoolup. Most of these comments are ****ing stupid. You do not upgrade to a huge turbo to then run 13 psi at WOT. Higher boost levels require much less gate then lower boost levels.
At lower boost levels, an internally gated turbo will spool slower because you have a huge flapper on a lever attached to a 15 psi spring. It will tend to blow open or leak because its not completely sealed unless you preload the spring. Anyone who has installed an external gate. Is aware that there is a sealing ring that goes between the gate and the flange. When you torque the gate to the flange. It loads the spring and creates a perfect seal. Internal gates work fine just not at ***** boost levels.Mr Buschurs comments are not directed to those who plan to run 10 psi with a giant turbo.
Your arguement on people running high boost with a big turbo only proves that the internal simplifies things. You need less gate to run high boost as we all know. When you bolt on a big turbo, that's what you plan on doing. What's the point of spending a couple of hundread dollars on an external gate, and then cluttering up the engine bay with extra plumbing for an extra 2mm of gate (38mm internal to 40mm external). I don't see the point in all of this bs. If you have a boost creep problem, an external may be the only way to fix it, but if you don't, just preload the spring and save your pennies.
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From: nj
Originally posted by Turbo-Weapon
WTF are you talking about. The best possible spoolup is with the gate completely closed PERIOD. Gate type and location is completely irrelevant to spoolup. Most of these comments are ****ing stupid. You do not upgrade to a huge turbo to then run 13 psi at WOT. Higher boost levels require much less gate then lower boost levels.
At lower boost levels, an internally gated turbo will spool slower because you have a huge flapper on a lever attached to a 15 psi spring. It will tend to blow open or leak because its not completely sealed unless you preload the spring. Anyone who has installed an external gate. Is aware that there is a sealing ring that goes between the gate and the flange. When you torque the gate to the flange. It loads the spring and creates a perfect seal. Internal gates work fine just not at ***** boost levels.Mr Buschurs comments are not directed to those who plan to run 10 psi with a giant turbo.
WTF are you talking about. The best possible spoolup is with the gate completely closed PERIOD. Gate type and location is completely irrelevant to spoolup. Most of these comments are ****ing stupid. You do not upgrade to a huge turbo to then run 13 psi at WOT. Higher boost levels require much less gate then lower boost levels.
At lower boost levels, an internally gated turbo will spool slower because you have a huge flapper on a lever attached to a 15 psi spring. It will tend to blow open or leak because its not completely sealed unless you preload the spring. Anyone who has installed an external gate. Is aware that there is a sealing ring that goes between the gate and the flange. When you torque the gate to the flange. It loads the spring and creates a perfect seal. Internal gates work fine just not at ***** boost levels.Mr Buschurs comments are not directed to those who plan to run 10 psi with a giant turbo.
Gate location plays a large role in spool up. If i have to instruct you in this then maybe you shouldnt have posted at all. On a tubular or cast manifold external gate postion is critical to controlling the spool characteristics of any turbocharger. I will let you think about your comment again and then i'll say some more.
I can agree with your comment that the seal needs to be tight. That is a given. But would you like to elaborate on your comment about 13psi at WOT?
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From: My name is Ananda Robinson.Stupid people should be killed. i live in Maryland
Originally posted by perfworks
First of all dont let your ignorance superscede the topic at hand. Insulting people that ask a direct question is not stupid. Your post is full of holes and if anything borders on silly along with some earlier comments by ISO.
Gate location plays a large role in spool up. If i have to instruct you in this then maybe you shouldnt have posted at all. On a tubular or cast manifold external gate postion is critical to controlling the spool characteristics of any turbocharger. I will let you think about your comment again and then i'll say some more.
I can agree with your comment that the seal needs to be tight. That is a given. But would you like to elaborate on your comment about 13psi at WOT?
First of all dont let your ignorance superscede the topic at hand. Insulting people that ask a direct question is not stupid. Your post is full of holes and if anything borders on silly along with some earlier comments by ISO.
Gate location plays a large role in spool up. If i have to instruct you in this then maybe you shouldnt have posted at all. On a tubular or cast manifold external gate postion is critical to controlling the spool characteristics of any turbocharger. I will let you think about your comment again and then i'll say some more.
I can agree with your comment that the seal needs to be tight. That is a given. But would you like to elaborate on your comment about 13psi at WOT?
First of all dont let your ignorance superscede the topic at hand
Your post is full of holes and if anything borders on silly along with some earlier comments by ISO.
On a tubular or cast manifold external gate postion is critical to controlling the spool characteristics of any turbocharger
You could put the wastegate on your forehead. The turbo would not spool any faster or slower. Boost control *may* be effected by gate location but certainly not spool time. personally i dont think you understand the dynamics of boost control.
But would you like to elaborate on your comment about 13psi at WOT?