Is there every going to be a company that makes bolt on turbos??
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
No, the reason internals do not spool as fast has nothing to do with with them blowing open
(In this particular arguement. That can happen, but generaly that will not happen on PTE powered cars...that tends to happens when you have a 7 -9 psi wg and like a stock dsm. A internal with an adjustble lever arm or a high tension spring shoeld stay shut better)
My arguement has to do with 2 things. Leaking and wastegate placement.
Leaking I refer to because they never create the precision seal of a nice external. If you have a closed wastegate with a dump, and put your hand under the dump , you generakly feel small amounts of air coming out. This may not happen with the PTE turbos(beautiful machine work), but it would not surprise me. Externals always seal very very tight.
Thats not as important as WG placement however. In days of yore, when you wanted a Garret turbo, you got a 5 bolt flange called the bastard flange. It has this tiny hole for a wg that I can't possibly understand as purposeful.
A few years ago they brought out a new turbie housing called the ballistic housing. Its 4 bolts and has no wastegate passage. The entire scroll is one perfectly smooth circle. The spool difference, just by changing housings, was noticeable. A bastard flanged 46 trims spools about the same as a ballistic flanged 60 trim, In my experience. Having the WG passage on the turbine housing create disturbances as it should be trying to spin the turbine. Garret did not design this new housing for no reason, its far better(not to mention prettier.)
So the fact is, if you set up an external harmonically(Im not using that word in any technical sense) with the exhaust flow, and have a perfect un molested turbine housing, you will get faster spool.
Perfworks...turbo-weapons comments were all right on the money. but its apparent he's never compared 5 bolt to 4 bolt turbine housings.
(In this particular arguement. That can happen, but generaly that will not happen on PTE powered cars...that tends to happens when you have a 7 -9 psi wg and like a stock dsm. A internal with an adjustble lever arm or a high tension spring shoeld stay shut better)
My arguement has to do with 2 things. Leaking and wastegate placement.
Leaking I refer to because they never create the precision seal of a nice external. If you have a closed wastegate with a dump, and put your hand under the dump , you generakly feel small amounts of air coming out. This may not happen with the PTE turbos(beautiful machine work), but it would not surprise me. Externals always seal very very tight.
Thats not as important as WG placement however. In days of yore, when you wanted a Garret turbo, you got a 5 bolt flange called the bastard flange. It has this tiny hole for a wg that I can't possibly understand as purposeful.
A few years ago they brought out a new turbie housing called the ballistic housing. Its 4 bolts and has no wastegate passage. The entire scroll is one perfectly smooth circle. The spool difference, just by changing housings, was noticeable. A bastard flanged 46 trims spools about the same as a ballistic flanged 60 trim, In my experience. Having the WG passage on the turbine housing create disturbances as it should be trying to spin the turbine. Garret did not design this new housing for no reason, its far better(not to mention prettier.)
So the fact is, if you set up an external harmonically(Im not using that word in any technical sense) with the exhaust flow, and have a perfect un molested turbine housing, you will get faster spool.
Perfworks...turbo-weapons comments were all right on the money. but its apparent he's never compared 5 bolt to 4 bolt turbine housings.
I personally feel for this car and the mods we want that the Tial external gate would be best. This our thought and feelings about the EVO turbo kit.
We also use Internal gates on a lot of the DSM turbos we sell and they seem to do ok at higher boost levels.
We will also be offering internal wastegate turbos and factory style manifolds that use the heat shield. We are developing a lot for the new turbo set-up to give our customers different options.
Everyone has their own opinions on the subject.
We also use Internal gates on a lot of the DSM turbos we sell and they seem to do ok at higher boost levels.
We will also be offering internal wastegate turbos and factory style manifolds that use the heat shield. We are developing a lot for the new turbo set-up to give our customers different options.
Everyone has their own opinions on the subject.
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
From: nj
Originally posted by ItsStockOfficer
No, the reason internals do not spool as fast has nothing to do with with them blowing open
(In this particular arguement. That can happen, but generaly that will not happen on PTE powered cars...that tends to happens when you have a 7 -9 psi wg and like a stock dsm. A internal with an adjustble lever arm or a high tension spring shoeld stay shut better)
My arguement has to do with 2 things. Leaking and wastegate placement.
Leaking I refer to because they never create the precision seal of a nice external. If you have a closed wastegate with a dump, and put your hand under the dump , you generakly feel small amounts of air coming out. This may not happen with the PTE turbos(beautiful machine work), but it would not surprise me. Externals always seal very very tight.
Thats not as important as WG placement however. In days of yore, when you wanted a Garret turbo, you got a 5 bolt flange called the bastard flange. It has this tiny hole for a wg that I can't possibly understand as purposeful.
A few years ago they brought out a new turbie housing called the ballistic housing. Its 4 bolts and has no wastegate passage. The entire scroll is one perfectly smooth circle. The spool difference, just by changing housings, was noticeable. A bastard flanged 46 trims spools about the same as a ballistic flanged 60 trim, In my experience. Having the WG passage on the turbine housing create disturbances as it should be trying to spin the turbine. Garret did not design this new housing for no reason, its far better(not to mention prettier.)
So the fact is, if you set up an external harmonically(Im not using that word in any technical sense) with the exhaust flow, and have a perfect un molested turbine housing, you will get faster spool.
Perfworks...turbo-weapons comments were all right on the money. but its apparent he's never compared 5 bolt to 4 bolt turbine housings.
No, the reason internals do not spool as fast has nothing to do with with them blowing open
(In this particular arguement. That can happen, but generaly that will not happen on PTE powered cars...that tends to happens when you have a 7 -9 psi wg and like a stock dsm. A internal with an adjustble lever arm or a high tension spring shoeld stay shut better)
My arguement has to do with 2 things. Leaking and wastegate placement.
Leaking I refer to because they never create the precision seal of a nice external. If you have a closed wastegate with a dump, and put your hand under the dump , you generakly feel small amounts of air coming out. This may not happen with the PTE turbos(beautiful machine work), but it would not surprise me. Externals always seal very very tight.
Thats not as important as WG placement however. In days of yore, when you wanted a Garret turbo, you got a 5 bolt flange called the bastard flange. It has this tiny hole for a wg that I can't possibly understand as purposeful.
A few years ago they brought out a new turbie housing called the ballistic housing. Its 4 bolts and has no wastegate passage. The entire scroll is one perfectly smooth circle. The spool difference, just by changing housings, was noticeable. A bastard flanged 46 trims spools about the same as a ballistic flanged 60 trim, In my experience. Having the WG passage on the turbine housing create disturbances as it should be trying to spin the turbine. Garret did not design this new housing for no reason, its far better(not to mention prettier.)
So the fact is, if you set up an external harmonically(Im not using that word in any technical sense) with the exhaust flow, and have a perfect un molested turbine housing, you will get faster spool.
Perfworks...turbo-weapons comments were all right on the money. but its apparent he's never compared 5 bolt to 4 bolt turbine housings.
At the end of your post though i will disagree slightly. Turbo weapons comments were maybe for the most part correct. Not entirely. Wastegate position plays a vital role in spool, heat retention, and overall torque curve characteristics in any forced induction setup.
Turbo-Weapon. DO YOU KNOW how a turbo works?. I really am not trying to be a dick. Seriously, with someone who SEEMS to know or care to know what he is saying , the comment you made about placing it on your forhead is ridiculous.
Expanding endgases, compressed oxygen molecules and good ole' fashion heat energy drive the turbine wheel. You know this. What happens when i have two identical cast or tubular manifolds, and position the external gate on one side of the manifold and the other near the inlet of the turbine nozzle area? Do you think that a turbo is some kind of a pin wheel. That only airflow (exhaust gas) hits the impellar and it spins? How can you seriously come on here and justify this statement. I refuse to give you a lesson on how turbos "work". So i will not go into any further detail. You are much smarter and therefore should retract such a statement. Ask RnR why the wastegate is positioned by the turbo inlet. PLEASE!!
I did not come on here to argue with you. I have said in an earlier post that i like cleaner installs and for the street an internal wastegate is absolutely fine. IF you are looking for MAX torque and overall better boost responce and control then external is definately the way to go. There are many opinions out there. We and you are entitled to them. But what is fact is fact. Wastegate provisions need to be precise.
Yes some may say it cuts corners to use an internal gate. I can see both sides of the arguement. OEM will strive for ease and reliability. IF properly engineered the internal gate can function just as well as an external. Is it cost effective then? MAYBE not. But that is a completely different ballgame.
Come on here and have a logical discussion. BE NICE. If i am wrong in any statement i make i will be more than happy to concede to it. That is why we are all here , to share info and enjoy our cars we all waited so long for. Im not trying to make friends or enemys. Just like to talk to my peers about a subject i know a little
about
In Timeout
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
From: My name is Ananda Robinson.Stupid people should be killed. i live in Maryland
Originally posted by perfworks
I
Turbo-Weapon. DO YOU KNOW how a turbo works?. I really am not trying to be a dick. Seriously, Expanding endgases, compressed oxygen molecules and good ole' fashion heat energy drive the turbine wheel. You know this. What happens when i have two identical cast or tubular manifolds, and position the external gate on one side of the manifold and the other near the inlet of the turbine nozzle area? Do you think that a turbo is some kind of a pin wheel. That only airflow (exhaust gas) hits the impellar and it spins? How can you seriously come on here and justify this statement. I refuse to give you a lesson on how turbos "work".
I
Turbo-Weapon. DO YOU KNOW how a turbo works?. I really am not trying to be a dick. Seriously, Expanding endgases, compressed oxygen molecules and good ole' fashion heat energy drive the turbine wheel. You know this. What happens when i have two identical cast or tubular manifolds, and position the external gate on one side of the manifold and the other near the inlet of the turbine nozzle area? Do you think that a turbo is some kind of a pin wheel. That only airflow (exhaust gas) hits the impellar and it spins? How can you seriously come on here and justify this statement. I refuse to give you a lesson on how turbos "work".
Are you completely stupid? Do you even know what a wategate is? wastegate placement on the manifold will not change how quickly a turbo will spool, unless its OPEN. You cant give any lessons on anything. Because you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Last edited by Turbo-Weapon; Nov 8, 2003 at 04:11 PM.
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
From: nj
I tried but you are obviously too thick headed to undertsand your own ignorance. Read the post again , SLOWLY . Maybe take a course in thermodynamics. Something. Please learn howexhaust pulses work, how they come about and the speed in which they travel in a given application. You really need to take a time out and teach yourself. You are not all knowing. You probably learned like the majority of the people here and on other forums. Thru experience. But theory is what gives you that base.
Continue to make arrogant statements. It doesnt get you far man. Its just an extention of your insecurities.
Good day
Continue to make arrogant statements. It doesnt get you far man. Its just an extention of your insecurities.
Good day
In Timeout
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
From: My name is Ananda Robinson.Stupid people should be killed. i live in Maryland
Originally posted by perfworks
I tried but you are obviously too thick headed to undertsand your own ignorance. Read the post again , SLOWLY . Maybe take a course in thermodynamics. Something. Please learn howexhaust pulses work, how they come about and the speed in which they travel in a given application. You really need to take a time out and teach yourself. You are not all knowing. You probably learned like the majority of the people here and on other forums. Thru experience. But theory is what gives you that base.
Continue to make arrogant statements. It doesnt get you far man. Its just an extention of your insecurities.
Good day
I tried but you are obviously too thick headed to undertsand your own ignorance. Read the post again , SLOWLY . Maybe take a course in thermodynamics. Something. Please learn howexhaust pulses work, how they come about and the speed in which they travel in a given application. You really need to take a time out and teach yourself. You are not all knowing. You probably learned like the majority of the people here and on other forums. Thru experience. But theory is what gives you that base.
Continue to make arrogant statements. It doesnt get you far man. Its just an extention of your insecurities.
Good day
good night
Last edited by Turbo-Weapon; Nov 8, 2003 at 04:20 PM.
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
From: nj
Originally posted by Turbo-Weapon
Are you completely stupid? Do you even know what a wategate is? wastegate placement on the manifold will not change how quickly a turbo will spool, unless its OPEN. You cant give any lessons on anything. Because you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Are you completely stupid? Do you even know what a wategate is? wastegate placement on the manifold will not change how quickly a turbo will spool, unless its OPEN. You cant give any lessons on anything. Because you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
wastegate placement
Originally posted by Turbo-Weapon
Are you completely stupid? Do you even know what a wategate is? wastegate placement on the manifold will not change how quickly a turbo will spool, unless its OPEN. You cant give any lessons on anything. Because you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Are you completely stupid? Do you even know what a wategate is? wastegate placement on the manifold will not change how quickly a turbo will spool, unless its OPEN. You cant give any lessons on anything. Because you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
In Timeout
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
From: Kennesaw Ga
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
From: nj
Originally posted by 2fast2Furious
You both need to read this.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
You both need to read this.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
Like i said fact is fact and everything else is BS and opinions.
Originally posted by slowTsi
No one is argueing about how an internal "may" blow open, nut it can also happen on an external gate with the same spring in the wg. The wg doesn't see boost pressure, it's back pressure that causes it to blow open prematurely. All adjustable internals have provisions to preload the spring to prevent this. An external with a weak spring could just as easily blow open slowly.
Your arguement on people running high boost with a big turbo only proves that the internal simplifies things. You need less gate to run high boost as we all know. When you bolt on a big turbo, that's what you plan on doing. What's the point of spending a couple of hundread dollars on an external gate, and then cluttering up the engine bay with extra plumbing for an extra 2mm of gate (38mm internal to 40mm external). I don't see the point in all of this bs. If you have a boost creep problem, an external may be the only way to fix it, but if you don't, just preload the spring and save your pennies.
No one is argueing about how an internal "may" blow open, nut it can also happen on an external gate with the same spring in the wg. The wg doesn't see boost pressure, it's back pressure that causes it to blow open prematurely. All adjustable internals have provisions to preload the spring to prevent this. An external with a weak spring could just as easily blow open slowly.
Your arguement on people running high boost with a big turbo only proves that the internal simplifies things. You need less gate to run high boost as we all know. When you bolt on a big turbo, that's what you plan on doing. What's the point of spending a couple of hundread dollars on an external gate, and then cluttering up the engine bay with extra plumbing for an extra 2mm of gate (38mm internal to 40mm external). I don't see the point in all of this bs. If you have a boost creep problem, an external may be the only way to fix it, but if you don't, just preload the spring and save your pennies.
A good rule of thumb with a the 40mm tial gate is that a boost controler (of any kind, manual or electronic) will be able to give you a max boost of aprox double your static spring pressure.
Keith
Newbie
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
From: Fallston, MD
Originally posted by perfworks
You are not all knowing. You probably learned like the majority of the people here and on other forums. Thru experience. But theory is what gives you that base.
You are not all knowing. You probably learned like the majority of the people here and on other forums. Thru experience. But theory is what gives you that base.
Originally posted by FourDoor
I am a perfect example of this. I had a Tial 40mm WG on my Galant VR-4. Unknown to me was the fact that the WG ships from the factory with a ***** *** little .6 bar spring in it! The most boost we were able to run before the WG was blown open by exhaust pressure was 18 psi.
A good rule of thumb with a the 40mm tial gate is that a boost controler (of any kind, manual or electronic) will be able to give you a max boost of aprox double your static spring pressure.
Keith
Originally posted by slowTsi
No one is argueing about how an internal "may" blow open, nut it can also happen on an external gate with the same spring in the wg. The wg doesn't see boost pressure, it's back pressure that causes it to blow open prematurely. All adjustable internals have provisions to preload the spring to prevent this. An external with a weak spring could just as easily blow open slowly.
Your arguement on people running high boost with a big turbo only proves that the internal simplifies things. You need less gate to run high boost as we all know. When you bolt on a big turbo, that's what you plan on doing. What's the point of spending a couple of hundread dollars on an external gate, and then cluttering up the engine bay with extra plumbing for an extra 2mm of gate (38mm internal to 40mm external). I don't see the point in all of this bs. If you have a boost creep problem, an external may be the only way to fix it, but if you don't, just preload the spring and save your pennies.
No one is argueing about how an internal "may" blow open, nut it can also happen on an external gate with the same spring in the wg. The wg doesn't see boost pressure, it's back pressure that causes it to blow open prematurely. All adjustable internals have provisions to preload the spring to prevent this. An external with a weak spring could just as easily blow open slowly.
Your arguement on people running high boost with a big turbo only proves that the internal simplifies things. You need less gate to run high boost as we all know. When you bolt on a big turbo, that's what you plan on doing. What's the point of spending a couple of hundread dollars on an external gate, and then cluttering up the engine bay with extra plumbing for an extra 2mm of gate (38mm internal to 40mm external). I don't see the point in all of this bs. If you have a boost creep problem, an external may be the only way to fix it, but if you don't, just preload the spring and save your pennies.
I am a perfect example of this. I had a Tial 40mm WG on my Galant VR-4. Unknown to me was the fact that the WG ships from the factory with a ***** *** little .6 bar spring in it! The most boost we were able to run before the WG was blown open by exhaust pressure was 18 psi.
A good rule of thumb with a the 40mm tial gate is that a boost controler (of any kind, manual or electronic) will be able to give you a max boost of aprox double your static spring pressure.
Keith
