3 tanks of E85 and look at my ID2000's! unreal!
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (50)
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,675
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From: Tri-Cities, WA // Portland, OR
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This is really disheartening as i built this car for E85. After only 3 tanks and i got this much gunk! The car started having idle problems and leaning out so i knew something was up with the fuel system. The last thing i checked was the injectors because of how little E85 they saw. Man was I blown away with what i found.
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I'm just kinda mad that it is this bad with so little E85 use.
This is really disheartening as i built this car for E85. After only 3 tanks and i got this much gunk! The car started having idle problems and leaning out so i knew something was up with the fuel system. The last thing i checked was the injectors because of how little E85 they saw. Man was I blown away with what i found.
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I'm just kinda mad that it is this bad with so little E85 use.
Iv ran e85 for 30k and no gunk at all. Not sure why your having this problem. I also agree that i perfer the smell of e95 over 93 any day. Anyway gl with finding the issue that causing all that gunk.
I have been on E-85 for 10k miles now. No gunk on the injectors at all. Just pulled the motor out and the piston tops were very clean. A little black deposits, but that was because my last few 100 miles I was running on a pig rich 93 octane tune.
My bet would be exactly like scorke said. The E-85 is cleaning all the gunk out of the fuel pump, lines, and filter that 93 has deposited all of those years. I can not attest to how clean fuel filters that run E-85 are, but my bet would be no more significant of buildup than any unleaded fuel.
My bet would be exactly like scorke said. The E-85 is cleaning all the gunk out of the fuel pump, lines, and filter that 93 has deposited all of those years. I can not attest to how clean fuel filters that run E-85 are, but my bet would be no more significant of buildup than any unleaded fuel.
Newbie
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: az
that freakin crazy!!! ive been on e85 for 5 months now, i drive my evo everyday and my 1600cc injectors havent looked anything like those!!!! wow that sucks hopefully most of the gunk in ur tank and lines are gone now!!!
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
From: Florida
Mix in a gallon or 2 of 93 octane with every tank of E85, this gets rid of that black goo and helps prevent buildup. 93 pump fuel seems to "eat" away at the gunk, even if the system is already dirty like in the pictures.
I just checked my ID1000s. After 165 gallons E85. There is lots of build up but the tip design is not shrouded. its tapered with the needle being the highest point. So buildup is a non issue with these 1000s. The build up does not effect spray pattern.
looks like the ethanol is melting rubber it comes in contact with.
looks like the ethanol is melting rubber it comes in contact with.
Evolving Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 100
Likes: 1
From: Wisconsin
What is the fuel history of that car Joel?
How many years and miles on on this fuel tank?
I am only guessing here- but that kind of deposit that fast would lead me to assume that this car had only seen gasoline with no alcohol until recently. (PA was not an early E10 adopter as compared to Minnesota or other Midwest locations). With E85 the tank deposits would have seen this new solvent for the first time and be cut lose. A filter (especially 10 mikes or higher) may not stop all redissolved gums left behind by gas since the gums may be back in chemical form rather than particulate. That said- I switched all of my personal vehicles over to ethanol blends (WI had no ethanol until 2004-5) but most of them went to E20 first (except my S10 FFV which went to E85 directly)--I have not had to change a fuel filter or touch an injector yet. My personal stuff is all high mileage- some as old as 230,000 miles and 1996 vintage.
Our company cars are all FFV's, all are 2005 and newer, and several are over 175,000 miles on E85 with not one injector ever being pulled. My company Taurus has 220,500 miles on it and also has not been touched. All of these FFV's fuel from stations that started with brand new tanks for E85 and all have the recommended dispenser filters that are 5 micron. As far as E85 being dirtier than gas- not my experience- when I tried to use that fine of filters on the gas side of a dispenser they pulled in less than a month while the E85 filter had full flow. Ethanol is filtered at 5 micron at the plant I pull from whereas gasoline is never filtered until the pump- if at all. I am aware that many stations in WI put in blank filters (no filter media) or 30 micron in the pump just so they do not have to change them.
In short- it may save headaches by pre-cleaning the tank with ethanol prior to putting it into use in a injected application. OR as I did- starting at a lower % ethanol and letting it clean gradually (not practical in a conversion like most do).
How many years and miles on on this fuel tank?
I am only guessing here- but that kind of deposit that fast would lead me to assume that this car had only seen gasoline with no alcohol until recently. (PA was not an early E10 adopter as compared to Minnesota or other Midwest locations). With E85 the tank deposits would have seen this new solvent for the first time and be cut lose. A filter (especially 10 mikes or higher) may not stop all redissolved gums left behind by gas since the gums may be back in chemical form rather than particulate. That said- I switched all of my personal vehicles over to ethanol blends (WI had no ethanol until 2004-5) but most of them went to E20 first (except my S10 FFV which went to E85 directly)--I have not had to change a fuel filter or touch an injector yet. My personal stuff is all high mileage- some as old as 230,000 miles and 1996 vintage.
Our company cars are all FFV's, all are 2005 and newer, and several are over 175,000 miles on E85 with not one injector ever being pulled. My company Taurus has 220,500 miles on it and also has not been touched. All of these FFV's fuel from stations that started with brand new tanks for E85 and all have the recommended dispenser filters that are 5 micron. As far as E85 being dirtier than gas- not my experience- when I tried to use that fine of filters on the gas side of a dispenser they pulled in less than a month while the E85 filter had full flow. Ethanol is filtered at 5 micron at the plant I pull from whereas gasoline is never filtered until the pump- if at all. I am aware that many stations in WI put in blank filters (no filter media) or 30 micron in the pump just so they do not have to change them.
In short- it may save headaches by pre-cleaning the tank with ethanol prior to putting it into use in a injected application. OR as I did- starting at a lower % ethanol and letting it clean gradually (not practical in a conversion like most do).
JP4 smells horrible as well as JP8...I am an F15 and soon to be F35 craftsman...E85 smells great and of course you cant beat Nitro...I like VP Import and c16 as well...yummy. I have run e85 for at least 40,000 miles and never had a dirty filter or injector and the top of my 83,000 mile stock pistons looked damn near like the car had a 1,000 miles.
Evolving Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 100
Likes: 1
From: Wisconsin
What fuels have been in this car in the past?
How many miles and years are on this vehicle?
What material is this tank made of?
Fuel Station- brand new tank for E85 or a tank conversion?
I am only guessing here- but that kind of deposit that fast would lead me to assume that this car had only seen gasoline with no alcohol until recently. (PA was not an early E10 adopter as compared to Minnesota or other Midwest locations). With E85 the tank deposits would have seen this new solvent for the first time and be cut lose. A filter (especially 10 mikes or higher) may not stop all redissolved gums left behind by gas since the gums may be back in chemical form rather than particulate. That said- I switched all of my personal vehicles over to ethanol blends (WI had no ethanol until 2004-5) but most of them went to E20 first (except my S10 that went to E85 directly at 50,000 miles) and have not had to change one filter or touch an injector. My stuff is all older mostly high mile with the oldest being a 1996 Silverado with 230,000 miles and the newest being a 2004 Saab 2T turbo. This is in spite of these running on E0 until around 2005 when ethanol fuels becoming available. (the Saab came used from Florida where E0 still was).
Company cars only run E85 (gas is a rare exception) and although they range from 120,000 miles to 220,500 miles they have never had an injector touched or any additive run thru them. Dispensers they pull from have the correct 5 micron filters in them, station tanks are either fiberglass or mild steel (depending on location) and were put in new- never getting any gas deposits in them in the first place. This may be important because many years ago when Chicago went to reformulated with ethanol BP would not ship it to a station until they had cleaned the tank. An unnamed major oil company did not and had a lot of issues yet BP reportedly had none. As far as gas being cleaner than ethanol I would never think that to be true- 1) ethanol is filtered at the plant I buy from at 5 micron, 2) after over 20 years in the fuels buisness I learned the hard way- gas and diesel products are never filtered until the retail point if even then. My bulk plants had only coarse screens until I started having multiple issues as diesel engine filters started going down from 30 micron into the 2's, 5's and 10's- only then did I put on filters and it was only on the distillate side- not gas (my bulk plants were the only ones in my area to even have filters). 3) at retail many gas station owners purposely put on either a blank filter (no element) or put on 30 micron to avoid changing filters. I use 1-5 micron on the E85 and 10 micron on gas. I tried the 1 micron on gas just one time- it plugged in less than a week.
Sorry for the repost- I thought I lost my original post when I went back in to edit.
How many miles and years are on this vehicle?
What material is this tank made of?
Fuel Station- brand new tank for E85 or a tank conversion?
I am only guessing here- but that kind of deposit that fast would lead me to assume that this car had only seen gasoline with no alcohol until recently. (PA was not an early E10 adopter as compared to Minnesota or other Midwest locations). With E85 the tank deposits would have seen this new solvent for the first time and be cut lose. A filter (especially 10 mikes or higher) may not stop all redissolved gums left behind by gas since the gums may be back in chemical form rather than particulate. That said- I switched all of my personal vehicles over to ethanol blends (WI had no ethanol until 2004-5) but most of them went to E20 first (except my S10 that went to E85 directly at 50,000 miles) and have not had to change one filter or touch an injector. My stuff is all older mostly high mile with the oldest being a 1996 Silverado with 230,000 miles and the newest being a 2004 Saab 2T turbo. This is in spite of these running on E0 until around 2005 when ethanol fuels becoming available. (the Saab came used from Florida where E0 still was).
Company cars only run E85 (gas is a rare exception) and although they range from 120,000 miles to 220,500 miles they have never had an injector touched or any additive run thru them. Dispensers they pull from have the correct 5 micron filters in them, station tanks are either fiberglass or mild steel (depending on location) and were put in new- never getting any gas deposits in them in the first place. This may be important because many years ago when Chicago went to reformulated with ethanol BP would not ship it to a station until they had cleaned the tank. An unnamed major oil company did not and had a lot of issues yet BP reportedly had none. As far as gas being cleaner than ethanol I would never think that to be true- 1) ethanol is filtered at the plant I buy from at 5 micron, 2) after over 20 years in the fuels buisness I learned the hard way- gas and diesel products are never filtered until the retail point if even then. My bulk plants had only coarse screens until I started having multiple issues as diesel engine filters started going down from 30 micron into the 2's, 5's and 10's- only then did I put on filters and it was only on the distillate side- not gas (my bulk plants were the only ones in my area to even have filters). 3) at retail many gas station owners purposely put on either a blank filter (no element) or put on 30 micron to avoid changing filters. I use 1-5 micron on the E85 and 10 micron on gas. I tried the 1 micron on gas just one time- it plugged in less than a week.
Sorry for the repost- I thought I lost my original post when I went back in to edit.
Last edited by 1outlaw; Apr 15, 2010 at 09:33 AM.
For all of you saying that it's the gunk in the tank/lines, that is not the case at all. This has been discussed on DSM forums long ago, it's something in the E85 mix like the above post gets into. I tune a friend's car with E85, and we pull his injectors to clean them every few tankfuls. It's a limited use car so it's not a big deal. This is enough to prevent me from ever running this crap in my own car though.
For all of you saying that it's the gunk in the tank/lines, that is not the case at all. This has been discussed on DSM forums long ago, it's something in the E85 mix like the above post gets into. I tune a friend's car with E85, and we pull his injectors to clean them every few tankfuls. It's a limited use car so it's not a big deal. This is enough to prevent me from ever running this crap in my own car though.
Mike