Twin Scroll Turbos?? Monster Spool.. FACT or FICTION???
"My standards" is just factual data that minimizes variance between setups.
Standard scientific process and it shocks me that with so many companies retailing TS setups, it seems like there is not a single company that has ran a fair test and presented the data without bias. Maybe it's out there and I just haven't seen it?
Yes, I have talked to engineers at Garrett. In person actually at several different professional racing events.
I didn't get any data from them either.
I also have numerous technical peer reviewed articles printed by engineers at Garrett, and as I already said, I have found nothing about gas powered TS setups. If you have references, real engineering references, please, post them up. I've got access to TONS of engineering journals and I have no problem going to the library to get them.
Here you go, here is part of my personal library on the topic of turbo design. This is from this year, I have many more in my archives.
I didn't get any data from them either.
I also have numerous technical peer reviewed articles printed by engineers at Garrett, and as I already said, I have found nothing about gas powered TS setups. If you have references, real engineering references, please, post them up. I've got access to TONS of engineering journals and I have no problem going to the library to get them.
Here you go, here is part of my personal library on the topic of turbo design. This is from this year, I have many more in my archives.
Last edited by 03whitegsr; May 4, 2010 at 03:23 PM.
Yes, I have talked to engineers at Garrett. In person actually at several different professional racing events.
I didn't get any data from them either.
I also have numerous technical peer reviewed articles printed by engineers at Garrett, and as I already said, I have found nothing about gas powered TS setups. If you have references, real engineering references, please, post them up. I've got access to TONS of engineering journals and I have no problem going to the library to get them.
I didn't get any data from them either.
I also have numerous technical peer reviewed articles printed by engineers at Garrett, and as I already said, I have found nothing about gas powered TS setups. If you have references, real engineering references, please, post them up. I've got access to TONS of engineering journals and I have no problem going to the library to get them.
Most of the talk was relevant to specific output. How much power can you make on a given fuel of a given engine size. Drag events primarily so there was more talk of how to get a turbo up to speed on the line and keep it up then anything. What the true airflow limits of a turbo are. How turbine selection impacts turbo performance.
There was very little mention of TS in the conversations I had with them.
It was the engineers too, as the sales guys usually had their eye glazed over about 30 seconds into the conversation.
You can tell though, the Garrett guys that support racing love making power and are very interested in our market.
There was very little mention of TS in the conversations I had with them.
It was the engineers too, as the sales guys usually had their eye glazed over about 30 seconds into the conversation.
You can tell though, the Garrett guys that support racing love making power and are very interested in our market.
Cool - so by you saying you spoke to their engineers, it wasn't really relevant to TS... I would suggest you give them a call tomorrow and ask them about TS specifically and let us know what they say...
In order to develop a state-of-the-art engine that features low-end torque, responsiveness, high output and low emissions, BMW chose BorgWarner's twin scroll turbocharger for the new six-cylinder engine. "The twin scroll technology produces results similar to twin-turbo applications but in a smaller package with lower weight and cost," said Roger Wood, President and General Manager, BorgWarner Turbo Systems.
Thread Starter
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (211)
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 9,665
Likes: 1
From: South Florida
So does Dodge & Ford for diesel applications which is what most BW units work on best.. I blew up 4 of them in a weekend.. 270 thrust bearing doesnt last long on an Evo that requires BOOST & RPM to make HP.. we rev higher than 3500..
Mike
Mike
That was several years ago. It looks like they are using it now though so maybe the response I would get now would be different?
Last edited by 03whitegsr; May 4, 2010 at 04:46 PM.
Garrett won't be on the leading edge of the learning curve. It was only fairly recently that they relisted a GT35R as being suitable for something as small as 2.0L. Garrett no longer appears to be a market leader, but is a market follower. How long was it before they actually released a billet compressor unit for general consumption after independents like FP and Precision had multiple examples proven in the field?
Those parties with the most data on TS (e.g. OEMs, racing teams, etc.) are those I see as least likely to make it available to casual enthusiasts.
Those parties with the most data on TS (e.g. OEMs, racing teams, etc.) are those I see as least likely to make it available to casual enthusiasts.
Have you driven the new M cars from BMW that use the TS BW... The rev a bit higher than 3500rpms 
Mike, you make silly posts...
From Honeywell (Garrett)
Twin Scroll Turbine Technology
Twin scroll turbine technology, which has been widely used in diesel engines for quite some time, remains an emerging technology for gasoline boosting. The theoretical justification for its application in gasoline boosting is very straightforward. Compared with single entry turbines, the twin scroll turbine technology delivers improved turbine performance due to the delivery of high pressure exhaust pulses directly to the turbine wheel. As a result, it provides better low speed performance, especially for four-cylinder engines. The difference between a diesel and a gasoline engine dictates that the successful adaptation of this technology to the gasoline sector requires considerable knowledge and expertise in materials, high temperatures, and aerodynamic design.
Twin scroll turbine technology, which has been widely used in diesel engines for quite some time, remains an emerging technology for gasoline boosting. The theoretical justification for its application in gasoline boosting is very straightforward. Compared with single entry turbines, the twin scroll turbine technology delivers improved turbine performance due to the delivery of high pressure exhaust pulses directly to the turbine wheel. As a result, it provides better low speed performance, especially for four-cylinder engines. The difference between a diesel and a gasoline engine dictates that the successful adaptation of this technology to the gasoline sector requires considerable knowledge and expertise in materials, high temperatures, and aerodynamic design.
Great comparison Mike!
This is def true.. and my experience with Precision and speaking with them on the phone numerous times they even recommend for the evo running a line as close to the filter as possible for proper oil pressure.. we have decent pressure of the stock location but they still recommend the relocation of the feed line.. and STI's have def have problems with adequate oil pressure for the turbo so it does not suprise me at all he was having problems.. ive ran my precision at 29psi with no problems.. and have rebuilt to have all seals upgraded...
This is def true.. and my experience with Precision and speaking with them on the phone numerous times they even recommend for the evo running a line as close to the filter as possible for proper oil pressure.. we have decent pressure of the stock location but they still recommend the relocation of the feed line.. and STI's have def have problems with adequate oil pressure for the turbo so it does not suprise me at all he was having problems.. ive ran my precision at 29psi with no problems.. and have rebuilt to have all seals upgraded...
Garrett won't be on the leading edge of the learning curve. It was only fairly recently that they relisted a GT35R as being suitable for something as small as 2.0L. Garrett no longer appears to be a market leader, but is a market follower. How long was it before they actually released a billet compressor unit for general consumption after independents like FP and Precision had multiple examples proven in the field?
Those parties with the most data on TS (e.g. OEMs, racing teams, etc.) are those I see as least likely to make it available to casual enthusiasts.
Those parties with the most data on TS (e.g. OEMs, racing teams, etc.) are those I see as least likely to make it available to casual enthusiasts.
SAE International
Parametric Studies of the Impact of Turbocharging on Gasoline Engine Downsizing
Parametric Studies of the Impact of Turbocharging on Gasoline Engine Downsizing
Abstract:
The internal combustion engine and associated powertrain is likely to remain the mainstay of mobility over the next twenty years and to remain a significant portion of the portfolio of technologies employed over a much longer period of time. Efficient combustion of all fuels (petroleum-based or alternative) requires copious amounts of air particularly with downsized engines. Turbocharging technology thus becomes an even more critical part of reducing both global warming gas and urban pollutant emissions from IC engines.
Gasoline engine downsizing and turbocharging has been shown to improve fuel economy by \mA20% in production vehicles. In addition to data over a wide range of engines/vehicles, the results of a simple analysis done on vehicles/engines/drive cycles are presented to show the benefits of turbocharging and downsizing in a parametric variation of downsizing in combination with other technologies. The analysis shows that 40% downsizing with turbocharging to restore the baseline torque curve gives about 21% reduction in fuel consumption. Fuel cut off during idling and coasting is estimated to give an additional 9% improvement, yielding a total of 30% reduction in fuel consumption. However, conventional turbocharging has been unable to supply enough air to maintain high torque at low speeds. Advances in turbo technology such as twin scroll turbine housing together with exhaust manifold design, direct injection have gone a long way towards meeting this need. In this paper, more advanced turbo technologies such as a parallel flow double-sided compressor are presented that show promise in addressing this issue as well as reducing turbo inertia and improving turbo efficiency at low speeds.
The internal combustion engine and associated powertrain is likely to remain the mainstay of mobility over the next twenty years and to remain a significant portion of the portfolio of technologies employed over a much longer period of time. Efficient combustion of all fuels (petroleum-based or alternative) requires copious amounts of air particularly with downsized engines. Turbocharging technology thus becomes an even more critical part of reducing both global warming gas and urban pollutant emissions from IC engines.
Gasoline engine downsizing and turbocharging has been shown to improve fuel economy by \mA20% in production vehicles. In addition to data over a wide range of engines/vehicles, the results of a simple analysis done on vehicles/engines/drive cycles are presented to show the benefits of turbocharging and downsizing in a parametric variation of downsizing in combination with other technologies. The analysis shows that 40% downsizing with turbocharging to restore the baseline torque curve gives about 21% reduction in fuel consumption. Fuel cut off during idling and coasting is estimated to give an additional 9% improvement, yielding a total of 30% reduction in fuel consumption. However, conventional turbocharging has been unable to supply enough air to maintain high torque at low speeds. Advances in turbo technology such as twin scroll turbine housing together with exhaust manifold design, direct injection have gone a long way towards meeting this need. In this paper, more advanced turbo technologies such as a parallel flow double-sided compressor are presented that show promise in addressing this issue as well as reducing turbo inertia and improving turbo efficiency at low speeds.