Lubrication thread
Sep 13, 2010, 11:10 AM
#46
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So, 20W 50 is best for
1) ALL modded Evos?
2) Is this regardless of stock OR aftermarket block?
3) Stock or stock frame turbo? Larger turbos?
4) Pump gas/pump + methanol/ E85?
For those of us who won't be driving in sub-zero temperatures and who either rarely or frequently beat on our cars, is this the end-all best weight regardless of the mods/fuel types I mentioned? Just want to be clear on what the point is that has been stated... Thanks
1) ALL modded Evos?
2) Is this regardless of stock OR aftermarket block?
3) Stock or stock frame turbo? Larger turbos?
4) Pump gas/pump + methanol/ E85?
For those of us who won't be driving in sub-zero temperatures and who either rarely or frequently beat on our cars, is this the end-all best weight regardless of the mods/fuel types I mentioned? Just want to be clear on what the point is that has been stated... Thanks
Sep 13, 2010, 11:42 AM
#47
So, 20W 50 is best for
1) ALL modded Evos?
2) Is this regardless of stock OR aftermarket block?
3) Stock or stock frame turbo? Larger turbos?
4) Pump gas/pump + methanol/ E85?
For those of us who won't be driving in sub-zero temperatures and who either rarely or frequently beat on our cars, is this the end-all best weight regardless of the mods/fuel types I mentioned? Just want to be clear on what the point is that has been stated... Thanks
1) ALL modded Evos?
2) Is this regardless of stock OR aftermarket block?
3) Stock or stock frame turbo? Larger turbos?
4) Pump gas/pump + methanol/ E85?
For those of us who won't be driving in sub-zero temperatures and who either rarely or frequently beat on our cars, is this the end-all best weight regardless of the mods/fuel types I mentioned? Just want to be clear on what the point is that has been stated... Thanks
Sep 13, 2010, 12:41 PM
#49
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we have also seen a spat of spun bearings at the shop. i'll investigate to see what oils everyone was using when they failed. one of them (which we actually reffered back to the dealer cause it was low miles, just purchased used, and still under warranty... if you can beleive that), looked like it had never been changed 
can't imagine why it failed. the rest were all unusual, so i'll check with owners to see if i can add any useful info. as a reference we also use the 15-50 amsoil, 20-50 mobil 1 or other higher viscosity oils on built engines. for stock motors we have stuck with amsoil 10-30 and 10-40.
oh, and for anyone running E85, change your oil often because it gets watered down quickly.
can't imagine why it failed. the rest were all unusual, so i'll check with owners to see if i can add any useful info. as a reference we also use the 15-50 amsoil, 20-50 mobil 1 or other higher viscosity oils on built engines. for stock motors we have stuck with amsoil 10-30 and 10-40.oh, and for anyone running E85, change your oil often because it gets watered down quickly.
Sep 13, 2010, 12:45 PM
#51
M1 0w-40 is not a good idea to use on a modded or high horsepower evo due to the grade being very thin it will add no protection to the bearings etc.etc.etc.Rp is a good oil but it tends to break down very quickly at around 1,000 miles is were I felt my car to feel sluggish and making my valves slightly tick a bit..That's not a good idea to change your filter every 4,000 miles just order a oem filter for 6 bucks with peace and mind that everything is clean and getting filtered with your new oil..
abra katabra I wave the wand and the amsoil guy will reappear >>>>
abra katabra I wave the wand and the amsoil guy will reappear
>>>>I'm currently using M1 0W-40, but may be switching to 15W-50 after this discussion.
Sep 13, 2010, 12:56 PM
#52
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we have also seen a spat of spun bearings at the shop. i'll investigate to see what oils everyone was using when they failed. one of them (which we actually reffered back to the dealer cause it was low miles, just purchased used, and still under warranty... if you can beleive that), looked like it had never been changed can't imagine why it failed. the rest were all unusual, so i'll check with owners to see if i can add any useful info. as a reference we also use the 15-50 amsoil, 20-50 mobil 1 or other higher viscosity oils on built engines. for stock motors we have stuck with amsoil 10-30 and 10-40.
oh, and for anyone running E85, change your oil often because it gets watered down quickly.
can't imagine why it failed. the rest were all unusual, so i'll check with owners to see if i can add any useful info. as a reference we also use the 15-50 amsoil, 20-50 mobil 1 or other higher viscosity oils on built engines. for stock motors we have stuck with amsoil 10-30 and 10-40.oh, and for anyone running E85, change your oil often because it gets watered down quickly.
Sep 13, 2010, 01:55 PM
#53
I think you have to specify which oils are the problem oils, you can't say, "All thin oils are junk" on the flip side one shouldn't say,"All 20-50 are great"(Yes, I realize we are refering back to BP 20-50). Some oil shears badly, so if "X" oil works well for a period of time, it doesn't mean "Y" oil will work the same. One also usually doesn't know what the engine has gone through before it's "tested". Case in point is KevinD's experience above. Low miles and done?? We have people that are beating on the 4G63 harder than ever before, because great tuners are able to push them past the where they were just a few years ago. It would be nice if we could track the abuse on all the failed engines. Anyway, I think the only thing I found a little surprising in the OP was the psi spike in the lighter oil, and was then cured by a heavier oil. Maybe I read it wrong, or maybe I misunderstood something. I'm still a fan of the thin oils, but they must maintain film strength for the duration of the OCI. Anyone who has looked at the oil threads from the past know that I run a 0-20 oil. I have had it in there now for 55,000 miles @ above 400 hp, the motor has 65,000 miles. I'm not saying everyone should do what I do, but it's what I think is proof that lighter weight oils have a place.
Sep 13, 2010, 02:41 PM
#54
Evolving Member
I think you have to specify which oils are the problem oils, you can't say, "All thin oils are junk" on the flip side one shouldn't say,"All 20-50 are great"(Yes, I realize we are refering back to BP 20-50). Some oil shears badly, so if "X" oil works well for a period of time, it doesn't mean "Y" oil will work the same. One also usually doesn't know what the engine has gone through before it's "tested". Case in point is KevinD's experience above. Low miles and done?? We have people that are beating on the 4G63 harder than ever before, because great tuners are able to push them past the where they were just a few years ago. It would be nice if we could track the abuse on all the failed engines. Anyway, I think the only thing I found a little surprising in the OP was the psi spike in the lighter oil, and was then cured by a heavier oil. Maybe I read it wrong, or maybe I misunderstood something. I'm still a fan of the thin oils, but they must maintain film strength for the duration of the OCI. Anyone who has looked at the oil threads from the past know that I run a 0-20 oil. I have had it in there now for 55,000 miles @ above 400 hp, the motor has 65,000 miles. I'm not saying everyone should do what I do, but it's what I think is proof that lighter weight oils have a place.
I initially used a M1 20w50 when I bought the car. Switched to 10W30 after reading the manual and the car felt noticeably more responsive. Thinking it was just my imagination or the car just really needed an oil change, I switched back to M1 20w50 for the next 5000Km change and the car just felt lazier. At that point I tried the 10w30 from RP , decided it was rubbish and have been running M1 0w30 ever since.
btw I'm pretty much stock with a tune and have done over 110,000 Km
Last edited by ecktt; Sep 13, 2010 at 02:55 PM.
Sep 13, 2010, 05:02 PM
#55
Aaron-
I respect you and you company as you have proved some things in your journey, and i agree to some extent with your though process, however-
- one must not atribute all failures to oil, you very well know that the tune is the culprit of a blown stock engine or a built one, not always though, but on the same line i am not saying that the thin oil was not the cause because i and you very well know that if the film strengh was not strong enoug for the internals then metal to metal contact could occur causing mayor failures,,, that is why dyno oils/low quality oils are a no no,
even though many argue with it, they are basically arguing not with you and me but with plenty years of testing on the engineering side and at the track.
you see oils these days have come long long ways, they can hold extensive abuse, and i say this only for the folks that dont have more than avg of 500 whp anything under this 20w50 is just not needed, there are plenty folks proving to use thin oils and engine are as healthy as they can be.
Another issue i have with this is that as you know all i do is sell oil and sell more oil
, and i have seen all types of walks of people that have used all kinds of oil weights, for example i take a customer i have here in these forums 04awdturbo, he started using ASMOIL ATM 10W30 when he got his evo 8, and when i started my business he continued to purchase from me 75,000 miles later and still using ATM 10W30, he ran the stock 9.8 turbo on race gas when you could not make more than 350hp on it, then old style FP green on this turbo maybe over 50 track pases and 100 dyno pulls and many beatings on the street, then FP red old style 38 lbs 15 or more track pases, over 80 dyno pulls.
And the engine lived with all the abuse, when the engine was taken apart cylinders were stupid shinny, cams, rockers, crank everything looked so spectacular than anyone who knew him could not believe it because of how hard he punished his car, he ran a tilton so believe me he was crazy anywhere on the road.
I respect you and you company as you have proved some things in your journey, and i agree to some extent with your though process, however-
- one must not atribute all failures to oil, you very well know that the tune is the culprit of a blown stock engine or a built one, not always though, but on the same line i am not saying that the thin oil was not the cause because i and you very well know that if the film strengh was not strong enoug for the internals then metal to metal contact could occur causing mayor failures,,, that is why dyno oils/low quality oils are a no no,
even though many argue with it, they are basically arguing not with you and me but with plenty years of testing on the engineering side and at the track.
you see oils these days have come long long ways, they can hold extensive abuse, and i say this only for the folks that dont have more than avg of 500 whp anything under this 20w50 is just not needed, there are plenty folks proving to use thin oils and engine are as healthy as they can be.
Another issue i have with this is that as you know all i do is sell oil and sell more oil
, and i have seen all types of walks of people that have used all kinds of oil weights, for example i take a customer i have here in these forums 04awdturbo, he started using ASMOIL ATM 10W30 when he got his evo 8, and when i started my business he continued to purchase from me 75,000 miles later and still using ATM 10W30, he ran the stock 9.8 turbo on race gas when you could not make more than 350hp on it, then old style FP green on this turbo maybe over 50 track pases and 100 dyno pulls and many beatings on the street, then FP red old style 38 lbs 15 or more track pases, over 80 dyno pulls.And the engine lived with all the abuse, when the engine was taken apart cylinders were stupid shinny, cams, rockers, crank everything looked so spectacular than anyone who knew him could not believe it because of how hard he punished his car, he ran a tilton so believe me he was crazy anywhere on the road.
Sep 13, 2010, 05:11 PM
#56
you also said , that you and your shop and some other shops have found the same findings, failures caused by thin oil running Mobil 1 10W30 or 5W30,,, well i would have to take your word for it but i tell you that i cant argue because you know what going on in your shopo, and i would not doubt mobil one to show that mobil has droped the ball and they are falling behind the curve testing has shown my claim to be true and this happend in the past year,,, its seems like every company that gets to big becomes a cooky cutter and quality gets put aside, they think that they got a name for themselves and they get comfortable.
i am also wondering Aaron if you are basing most of these findings on high horse power cars anything over 450 to 500 with also high boost ?
i am also wondering Aaron if you are basing most of these findings on high horse power cars anything over 450 to 500 with also high boost ?
Sep 13, 2010, 06:51 PM
#57
I've been pushing over 500 hp since Dec 2008 when I installed my 64mm Red for the first time. With the recommendation of the shop I began using Amsoil 20w50. Now anyone that knows me knows I practically live at the track. Within 3 months my Red failed. I can't say that it was the 20w50 that caused the failure but with Andy's advice I began using the Amsoil ATM 10w30 instead since early 2009. I ran Pump & Meth in 2008 & 2009 and in Feb 2010 went to E85 and continued using the Amsoil 10w30. I'm still on the stock block and continue going to the track at least twice a month. I do attribute my engine life to first Jestr Tuning and now Diiirk@AWD Motorsports on E85 but the oil has to be a major player here.
Sep 13, 2010, 06:59 PM
#58
I think you have to specify which oils are the problem oils, you can't say, "All thin oils are junk" on the flip side one shouldn't say,"All 20-50 are great"(Yes, I realize we are refering back to BP 20-50). Some oil shears badly, so if "X" oil works well for a period of time, it doesn't mean "Y" oil will work the same. One also usually doesn't know what the engine has gone through before it's "tested". Case in point is KevinD's experience above. Low miles and done?? We have people that are beating on the 4G63 harder than ever before, because great tuners are able to push them past the where they were just a few years ago. It would be nice if we could track the abuse on all the failed engines. Anyway, I think the only thing I found a little surprising in the OP was the psi spike in the lighter oil, and was then cured by a heavier oil. Maybe I read it wrong, or maybe I misunderstood something. I'm still a fan of the thin oils, but they must maintain film strength for the duration of the OCI. Anyone who has looked at the oil threads from the past know that I run a 0-20 oil. I have had it in there now for 55,000 miles @ above 400 hp, the motor has 65,000 miles. I'm not saying everyone should do what I do, but it's what I think is proof that lighter weight oils have a place.
Sep 13, 2010, 07:09 PM
#59
you also said , that you and your shop and some other shops have found the same findings, failures caused by thin oil running Mobil 1 10W30 or 5W30,,, well i would have to take your word for it but i tell you that i cant argue because you know what going on in your shopo, and i would not doubt mobil one to show that mobil has droped the ball and they are falling behind the curve testing has shown my claim to be true and this happend in the past year,,, its seems like every company that gets to big becomes a cooky cutter and quality gets put aside, they think that they got a name for themselves and they get comfortable.
i am also wondering Aaron if you are basing most of these findings on high horse power cars anything over 450 to 500 with also high boost ?
i am also wondering Aaron if you are basing most of these findings on high horse power cars anything over 450 to 500 with also high boost ?
I look at it like this (though some might contend this chicken or egg?), if the first thing to suffer from inadequate oil is the turbocharger it follows that some damage is being done to the rest of the engine at a lesser rate. We had 3 motors in a row with spun mains. I havent ever seen spun/stacked mains before, thats not normal at all for engine failures.
While some might be able to show that some thinner oils are okay, and I wont argue that maybe some are, I do think we all agree that the right filler/additive/whatever package in the oil is critical. The fact that some oils lose viscosity faster (like Mobil One 10-30) as they heat isnt helping. I am sure that some 20w-50 do the same thing, I also wont contest that. It does stand to reason though that an oil that is losing viscosity from a higher thickness will protect longer though.
aaron
Sep 13, 2010, 07:17 PM
#60
we have also seen a spat of spun bearings at the shop. i'll investigate to see what oils everyone was using when they failed. one of them (which we actually reffered back to the dealer cause it was low miles, just purchased used, and still under warranty... if you can beleive that), looked like it had never been changed can't imagine why it failed. the rest were all unusual, so i'll check with owners to see if i can add any useful info. as a reference we also use the 15-50 amsoil, 20-50 mobil 1 or other higher viscosity oils on built engines. for stock motors we have stuck with amsoil 10-30 and 10-40.
oh, and for anyone running E85, change your oil often because it gets watered down quickly.
can't imagine why it failed. the rest were all unusual, so i'll check with owners to see if i can add any useful info. as a reference we also use the 15-50 amsoil, 20-50 mobil 1 or other higher viscosity oils on built engines. for stock motors we have stuck with amsoil 10-30 and 10-40.oh, and for anyone running E85, change your oil often because it gets watered down quickly.
a couple guys from evoempire that are running e85 sent their oil into blackstone labs and they said they could go a couple thousand miles more(IIRC they all sent it in when the oil had 3k miles on it)gonna subscribe to this thread to gain some knowledge
