Pick a realistic power goal. If one configures a TS setup to meet that goal, it will provide noticeably quicker transient response than an open housing setup one would normally use to meet that same goal with the same turbo. That's what your getting.


The disadvantages are slower transient response and laggier spool versus a smaller, faster spooling turbo that can achieve the same power.

 

slower transient response u mean as in between shifts? not sure if i understood what u meant.
for the time being I am limited to what psi i run due to my stock block, but eventualy i will be raising the pressure and take full advantage of the turbo. however, do u guys think the 63 will cause any surge/choke on the turbo?
I dont think I have seen anyone run this setup in the past and was wondering if this could help me spool faster especialy at that boost lvl.
thanks and sorry to for the OT!

 

Batty and Detroit, be careful you'll be labeled as twin scroll haters. Haha

Asking questions like you have aren't going tonged you anywhere because the guys you are directing your questions to don't know. They haven't tested different set ups back to back. They are Internet experts who like to type. You are getting opinions from them that they have formed from reading and asking various shops questions. Take the numerous pm's I've answered questions for rt and the hundreds of questions he's asked Mike.

Those statements are fact and what crack me up about their "expert" opinions. These guys build one car and gather various information from God knows what source and then spout off like what they say is gospel.

I post what I've actually seen and experienced in the real world after doing nothing but this door 20+ years and I'm a closed minded hater........that's not how it works, except in their closed minds.

So, if you want to know from someone who actually does this for a living, owns a dyno and has tested more combinations of parts on just one snuggle car then they have on all cars they ever owned, don't waste your time asking "experts of opinions".

The .63 single scroll t3 housing in your case will only have benefits on the HTA86. It will spool quicker than the .82 and at those boost levels will not give up much, if anything up top.

I also have dyno charts comparing open scroll T4 housings to T3, twin scroll T4 to open etc., etc.

The guys who've actually spent the time doing the work know what the typical results are. The guys who bought twin scroll kits for their one or two cars and like them think it's the only set up to run because they are happy with it. Being happy with what you have is fine and twin scroll has it's benefits, Ive always agreed with that. Being happy with what you have and arguing it's the best and everyone who doesn't agree is wrong makes you stupid, not happy.

Evodans car had the best spool up of any HTA86 I've had on our dyno, if that's what a customer wanted from me then he'd get a twin scroll set up or a smaller runner header, which once again I've tested. That is something left out of the equation by these experts. The primary tubing size used on the header plays a HUGE roll in spool up. The twin scroll stuff offered all uses a small primary tube size, that alone is a large-large difference in low end and showed no losses in top end until close to 700 whp on whp dyno.

I'm not against twin scroll, I'm against idiots who drink the koolaid on any subject and then spout off constantly it's the only way to go. Atleast when I'm typing I'm typing from experience and not internet knowledge......

 

I've made the offer before and it still stands, anyone living in my area or that wants to visit the Jersey Shore is welcome to come for a ride... I've had guys with nice and powerful SS setups in my car before and they ALL just could not believe the response and behavior of my equally powerful TS setup - transient response, on throttle off throttle on throttle, etc is something that needs to be experienced to truly appreciate.

All major commercial and OEM manufacturers have or are migrating to TS setups - they are not doing that because it's more cost effective, they are doing it because it works! Variable vain turbos are even more interesting to me, but I don't see any of those available to the EVO community yet.

 

Batty, you have to ask yourself what I tell every single customer to ask himself, "What is the primary use and goal of you car going to be."

You are not going to build a car that can do everything absolutely the best that it can be. So working with an EVO, you are not going to develop 600 ft lbs at 3,000 rpm and make 800 whp up top. If you could (let me add that nitrous would change the point I am trying to make) then you could build an EVO suited for any job, including towing a large camper!

So ask yourself what you are going to do with the car the most. Drag? Autocross? Road course? Daily drive it? Highway roll racing? What the the purpose? If you are like me you want the car to do it all, which is how my EVO's been built from the start, it just so happens through the course of things it's been able to run 9.0's. The fact is it's proven itself to also be a competitive autocross car, even with not autocross friendly tires and alignments. On the street it's acceptable but a stock type turbo is for sure more fun to drive low in the rpm, so is a stroker.

In the end there is a he'll of a lot more to how the car is going to feel and perform than what turbo you put on it. As a matter of fact that's one of the LAST choices that needs to be made.

Having 500 ft lbs at 3000'ish rpm and running 9.5's should be proof enough of that, oh and that statement would be promoting twin scroll BTW.

 

Philthy, no more insults. Post your best dyno sheet, fuel used and boost level. Also post your best 1/4 mile time and mph.

I am 100% sure your car has great response and feels great. Let's see what you've got, I'm curious.

 

Dave my offer extends to you too - come to NJ and I'll let you see first hand what's in my little stable of fast cars... I'll even pick you up at the airport and have the wife make you dinner...

All my data on my car is posted on this forum. I'm a typical consumer and there are plenty of shops you can take on if you're feeling up to it... Enter the Modified Tuner Shootout, go racing against the big boys in Time Attack, enter the one lap America, etc...

 

Thanks for the input Dave.

 

Full-Race builds (4) different Evo turbo headers, each designed to work as best as possible for a given turbo configuration and location. Many years spent pioneering and refining twinscroll setups, and I can confidently say that the current "State of the Art" is about to change with the BorgWarner EFR series.

Until now, most of the twinscroll turbos available to us were hybrid garretts with some random divided housing machined to fit. This did work fairly well in some cases, but as these turbine wheels were very narrow to suit the garrett gt28 chra (found on gt30s and gt35s, etc) the narrow width meant less than optimal performance in wide twinscroll housings. This is why i have been fond of the garrett gt4088R gt4094R gt42r and the borgwarner s200sx s300sx and s400sx - all are designed to be genuine twinscroll performers.

regarding the runner debate -

-Full-Race builds stock location headers, designed to optimize powerband for the stock turbo.
-Full-Race builds big runner singlescroll T3 headers, designed to give great topend (since top end flow is the benefit of undivided T3)
-Full-Race small runner T4 design is good to 700-730ish whp and optimized for response, spoolup and powerband. This is what Sierra Sierra's unlimited budget time attack team purchases from us for their car.
-Full-Race's big runner T4 manifold is suited for applications over 700whp

 

The standard for us is 1.5" runners, we can build them in 1.25" runners if requested. Most of our customers who run the HTA3586 are shooting for over 650whp, so the 1.5" runners will come into play.

We apply the same logic to our stock replacement manifolds, if you want under 600whp on the evo 8 we use 1.25" if you want to push over that we go with 1.50"

We have done some testing and the evo x seems to benefit all over with 1.5" runners.

We are a custom fabrication shop so if you can dream it, we can most likely build it for you

The same goes with our intercooler cores, we don't use a standard off the shelf core, we have custom cores designed for each application.

Thanks!

Michael

 

I have handed out warnings to different people. This thread needs to stay friendly and back on topic. If you guys can't talk about your points without flaming, don't bother to post.

I have also cleaned the flaming from the thread on all sides.

 

[QUOTE=davidbuschur.

I've got a twin scroll T4 header with an HTA86 on Matt's car. He has the first twin scroll GT42 header we built for our old black car on his car. He got tired of the lag but couldn't swing an entire new turbo kit. I put the TS HTA on the old GT42 header, his car works very good. 9.6's and it's heavy. It has a FULL NHRA certified cage that's good to 7.50's I believe, power windows, door beams etc,.

Correct me if I'm wrong David, but you replaced the T3 Manifold with a T4 Twinscroll manifold on this particular car right? If that's right this would be the perfect car to illustrate your point. Since you dynoed it, you should have the graphs. I'm interested in seeing it please. I've agonized over this TS vs SS for too long now.
Thanks.

 

The issue with comparing a SS to a TS turbocharger is accurately sizing the A/R and the Housing size.

For example you could use similar A/R turbine housings, but then you need to match the opening's cross sectional area in order to make a direct comparison. Furthermore the turbine wheels are designed for either TS or SS...usually not well at both.

I guess the true indicator would be to run the same compressor wheel... but do whatever you want to the turbine housing/scroll while keeping the runner length, number of bends, and volume constant (for the manifold)

That way... you would be comparing the most efficient TS setup to the most efficient SS setup.

I see most people trying to compare the TS vs SS... and using similar A/R turbine housings. I think this is akin to people tyring to compare an open scroll T4 .81AR to an open scroll T3 .82AR. Which is apples to oranges.

 

Dieselmd, Matts car had a GT40 on it, then a GT42 and now an HTA86, I believe all of those we on the same header. Our black car had T3's, T4 single and twin scroll and quite a few really good turbo tests done on it. We must have got something right on that car, it's held the mph record now for 4 years, just throwing that out there.

With all the arguing lately I'll avoid posting dyno sheets here.

 

i know i dont have a race car and its not making 700+whp but i do have a HTA gt3582r with a twinscroll t4 1.06 housing on a stock 2.0 evo motor with hks 272 cams. And the car is driving every day and is tuned on 91 onctane