Ang Wen Yan

+1
Agreed
If EFR 8374 can put down 800whp on Dynojet and have that spool,than it is
If it does 700whp,might as well as stick to good ole GT3586 HTA

n2oiroc

iTrader: (33)

i think 800 is a reach, 750 with the spool like geoff posted, would make me very happy. anything under 700 full tilt, and im going to be pissed.

MrLith

With the claims that have been made about these turbos, >700whp at full tilt on race fuel is a minimum expectation.... looking forward to seeing how much it eclipses it by.

evilevo2006

iTrader: (1)

it is indeed getting interesting. i would expect no less the 775 on this setup. Christ the HTA86 can do that with no problems. i would hope this turbo can do it at the same boost levels otherwise IMO its a flop. i like geoff's setup. it has all the right parts to do it. its up to the turbo now to get it done. thats my thought on this.

thanks geoff in advanced for when you push it harder. get it done.

03whitegsr

iTrader: (8)

I imagine driver feedback is all about "Feel" as that's really all a driver is doing for the most part. That turbo got on the car from engineering though, and I'm sure those engineers are verifying the "Feel" with quantifiable data as well.

Here is a figure from MHI regarding the TME6.5 TiAl (aka "Gamma Ti") turbine wheel development. The paper is from October 2000.

Talonboost

It would be really interesting to have a curve for turbo shaft speed on the next dyno pull, and a curve for boost. Then we could see about where the thing gets to on the compressor map. Might be able to figure out something from that.

The 0.92 is the smaller TS housing. Geoff, when you go external wastegates, it will be with a 1.05 a/r housing, right?

Also, any chance of putting a more heavily worked head on there? The current one seems pretty basic.

03whitegsr

iTrader: (8)

"Pretty basic" 4G63 heads have ran 8s...

Head work helps with lower boost (such as this level), but it seems like when boost goes to the max later it probably won't matter much.

Talonboost

Well I know, one of my favorite examples is Tim Zimmer who is a geologist in Milwaukee, user Twicks69 in DSMtuners. I have to laugh when I look at his user profile page - paragraph after paragraph of cool stuff, then, "1991 Unported Cylinder Head".
Anyway, 835 awhp from him on a dynojet, 46 psi, BW S400SX, 1.1 a/r T4. It is a 2.3 liter.

Still, I think many of the HTA threads that people are comparing to are engines with "stage III" heads and so forth. Would be good if BW just dumped a big pile of budget on Geoff so he could do a full-effort push to the wall test.

tim radley

The 4 replies previous to this chart post say to me that a lot of people are only considering peak bhp potential again. Geoff has tried to explain the feel of his car now and said that no single scroll he's ever tested has this kick and delivery, but that is not showing in the charts which is how most people relate to how good a setup is.
"if it can't make ..... then might as well have a 35hta". Ok that's fine, great turbo's, but if you just want peak bhp then fill your boots. But not everyone races the dyno or the drag strip. You wouldn't run drag radials or tyre pressures on a road course, this is no different.

Last night i was talking to Geoff via email about time-based testing and this graph from mitsubishi clearly shows that type of test. The dynojet will show time on the x-axis but almost nobody bothers, i guess because the captive audience wouldn't understand or the operators don't understand or both. That is a shame. If you start the test from the same position for 2 or more different setups and look at boost recovery time then it will give you some measure of the effectiveness of a turbo for a road application. We are not talking spool, we are talking boost recovery. You can have an early spool but **** boost recovery ie. back on the throttle it has lag, come out of corner on road course get back on gas and there is a delay in torque delivery.

0.2s to regain the same boost in a transient situation as shown in this graph is a huge advantage in a race situation. Take a look at some road course datalogging and see how many times on a lap the turbo is put in this on/off/on/off situation, then add up all those 0.2s together. What would that do for lap time in say time attack? Is it any wonder then that the hks ct230 and sierra sierra time attack evo's both run twin scroll fast transient turbo's. If a HTA was so much more effective they would run those. Mitsubishi also wouldn't waste time tooling for twin scroll if it didn't make for a better response road car.


Yep, turbo speed would be a start. But again a sweep test is only going to show spool not transient. People need to start running back to back tests on the dynojet with time on the x-axis, talking throttle on and off and on again, you end up with a series of torque charts linked end to end. You can then export the data into excel from winpep and line up the start conditions then chart overlay boost vs time. It is very clear to see the transient gains there.

Agreed, Geoff is running a pretty lowly setup here. But to me it appears he's tried to create a drop-in type kit for the man on the street who isn't building a race motor. Full credit to him for putting his neck on the line and risking flaming from a "less than ultimate" setup initially but i'm sure this data, figures and "feel" talk will help some lower budget builds end up with awesome setups in the future.

For Geoff and the EFR to have a fair crack of the whip we need to see some external wastegate kit tests vs 35hta. After all, the 35hta isn't running a smaller housing with internal wastegate in the example range people here are talking about is it! And as clearly pointed out, how many are stock heads too?

If i was building a time attack car then i'd look for the fastest transient 600bhp turbo around. CT230 seems to go well with 560bhp, plenty of videos of much more powerful cars on youtube where you see the incar video of the driver waiting for torque delivery then fighting the wheel when it arrives Building a drag engine i'd just throw a GT42 or big precision turbo on it.

hydra

Funny you should mention the CT230R, it runs a single scroll HKS GT3240. Makes you wonder why they didn't go with a twin scroll setup...

tim radley

My mistake, i thought they were running a twin scroll setup.
Just checked the specs and its intersting they chose such a small turbo, perhaps the choice was driven by available products in their range vs lap times? T04Z is the next twin scroll i can see from HKS

RSMike

iTrader: (1)

I know how to solve this whole problem...

Give JohnBradley an EFR Turbo kit.
get him to test it.

mayberry

iTrader: (43)

That would need to be done the same day, without the car leaving the dyno. Also, I believe his car is already taken apart for the new automatic thing they have going on. Not to mention a new engine package. With the automatics coming out, the idea of twin scroll is kind of pointless as the autos are going to load engine up in a completely different manner. So for drag racing, the automatic with an undivided set up is probably go "spool" just as good as any twin scroll set up. I mean, this is just my .02 with absolutely no hard evidence to support it, so take it with a grain of salt. Just my way of thinking.

I truly believe in these turbos (EFR) and what Full-Race has to say about twin scroll. People are going to believe what they want when it comes to what works and what doesn't. Transient response is really hard to measure unless you've experienced a properly set up twin scroll set up first hand, vs a similar turbo on the same car, it's hard to explain and make a person a believer. But when I rode in a friends 6765 Evo9 with a full race t3 kit then when he sold that and went to the F-R t4 ts kit using the same turbo/different hot side. I couldn't believe the difference in "feel" it had on the street. Unfortunately he wasn't able to get before and after dyno graphs as it was turned by two different people on two different dynos.

I think Geoffs' set up is optimized as much as it can be. I have full faith in his cylinder head as Dave Localia definitely knows what he is doing. Most of the power is found in a proper valve job and bowl blending. The stock ports really just need to be cleaned up, not so much reshaped for making anything under 1000whp. Not to mention the over sized valves are a sales gimmick until you're making quadruple digit power numbers. So for his car to max out the 8374 isn't going to be a problem. I like how simple the build is. Nothing that anyone can't replicate. It's a standard steel rod/stock crank bottom end using all off the shelf parts as far as the engine is concerned. Including all the bolt ons. Once he turns the wick up on the real fuel people will come around. Also consider this is on an internal wastegate and brand new manifold set up retaining all the creature comforts of a street driven car in full weight trim. No drastic diets, no forward facing set ups, no obnoxious dump tubes, just pure, smooth power being put to the ground while enjoying your AC cruising down the highway.

94AWDcoupe

iTrader: (125)

I think you guys will be disappointed when Jeffs setup is pushed harder. It looks to me like the setup is about done with the torque curve after 7 k. the internal gate housing looks to be choking things quite a bit. 560hp for 30 psi is also indicating this. I think leets car made 530ish at 24 psi on smaller turbo.??

I was somewhat excited about these turbos a year ago. been nothing but disappointed since

Geoff Raicer

iTrader: (7)

it has way more in it. TQ dropped because the WG spring was too soft. im swamped this week, we will be back on the dyno to put a rest to this forum whining when I can.

dont forget this is only a 2.0L mild street build, .92 a/r internal wg. Daily driver meant for fun. NOT an 800hp turbo, thats the 9180 1.05 or 8374 1.05 maxxed out. lets be realistic