Stock Internals. Max out WHP.
I like that ^^^
Your around my goal too, and the tuner I am using is a great tuner. Has been around DSMs for a looong time. Thats why I trust him more.
I will keep this thread updated tonight to see what he will think will be best.
Thank you guys for the help/input.
Your around my goal too, and the tuner I am using is a great tuner. Has been around DSMs for a looong time. Thats why I trust him more.
I will keep this thread updated tonight to see what he will think will be best.
Thank you guys for the help/input.
Have you ever seen a 4g63 or 4b11 block? There is not enough material in the thing to bore it out enough to make any kind of difference, .060 over on these things is pushing it. Stroking a 2.0 to a 2.3, building a 2.4, or destroking a 2.4 into a 2.1 seem like the best options.
Sleeves aren't going to help, it's a cast iron block. It is more a matter of just physically not having enough room. This isn't some Chevy V8 where you can punch it out .020 over and gain .1L of displacement haha
Last edited by goodhart; Mar 17, 2011 at 10:38 AM.
There is a lot of "interesting" statements in this thread...
I ran 540/425 on a DJ for 1.5 years and beat the living shiz out of it and didn't have one problem. Like already stated tq is the end all for the stock block or over reving till the rod bolt snaps. The stock block should last for quite some time below the 420tq mark on a DJ. I know of 10 people right off the top of my head that have 500-550whp on the stock block and 3 that have almost 600whp on the stock block. None of them have ran into problems yet.
The discussion about longer rods being weaker, alum rods breaking at 425tq is a bit incorrect... The LR motors run a 6mm longer rod and I can tell you that the extra 6mm is not weaking the rod to point that you should even think about it. The only problem that you will run into with aftermarket rods is if you do a cheap H beam rod and throw 600+ tq at it. It will not last and will find an exit whole. I have yet to see an alum rod fail due to tq. The thing with alum rods is they do weaken over time and a lot of people change them at 25k miles for safety reasons. However if a alum rod does fail, it bends, it doesn't exit the block like a steal rod.
However, with all that stated, any rod is "breakable" given the right conditions...
Some other key things you should know about making the stock block last is the tune. Not only do you want to keep tq below 425 or whatever you think is safe, but that is my limit on stockblocks, you also have to watch your timing and afrs. The higher the timing (means the higher the cylinder pressure)... So keep timing at a relitivley low level. Don't push the envelope. Also I like the stock motors to run a bit rich to keep from having a problem if your car decides it wants to run a bit lean on a pull late at night with a higher boost spike.
Last but not least is oiling. Oil is the blood of a motor and should be treated as such. All of your bearings and turbo needs oil to survive. You may have the best tune/stategy in the world but you can lose a motor due to a bearing failure, not just a rod failure. The Kiggly HLA ($170) is a great mod for a stock motor limiting how much oil goes to the head and keeps more in the pan to keep the bearings happy. It also increase the oil pressure for a motor that has oil squirters which is always a good thing. The other great mod to do is mod your oil pan with baffles like David B does, or get the AMS pan... The pickup tube in our cars can be made to run dry during hard cornering and hard acceleration. To help keep the oil moving to the back of the pan or side to side you should mod the pan. A lot of us even run 1/3 - 1/2 quart over on oil to help elevate that problem as well. Also lower timing helps the bearing to last longer too.
Another thing that helps the stock motors last longer are larger turbos. The larger the turbo, the later they spool, minimizing the large tq spike in lower rpms. For example a 500whp HTA Green will blow a stock motor before a 500whp FP Black car with the same tq level.
Also don't load your car up in a high gear/low rpm. ex: 5th gear on the interstate at 2000rpms and you floor it. That is a great way to huff a rod!!!
There are lots of little tricks that help the stock motor last longer. I'm sure your tuner will know what they are and will make sure you get a safe tune. I'm not scared of a 550whp motor as long as the tq is below 425.
Mikey
I ran 540/425 on a DJ for 1.5 years and beat the living shiz out of it and didn't have one problem. Like already stated tq is the end all for the stock block or over reving till the rod bolt snaps. The stock block should last for quite some time below the 420tq mark on a DJ. I know of 10 people right off the top of my head that have 500-550whp on the stock block and 3 that have almost 600whp on the stock block. None of them have ran into problems yet.
The discussion about longer rods being weaker, alum rods breaking at 425tq is a bit incorrect... The LR motors run a 6mm longer rod and I can tell you that the extra 6mm is not weaking the rod to point that you should even think about it. The only problem that you will run into with aftermarket rods is if you do a cheap H beam rod and throw 600+ tq at it. It will not last and will find an exit whole. I have yet to see an alum rod fail due to tq. The thing with alum rods is they do weaken over time and a lot of people change them at 25k miles for safety reasons. However if a alum rod does fail, it bends, it doesn't exit the block like a steal rod.
However, with all that stated, any rod is "breakable" given the right conditions...Some other key things you should know about making the stock block last is the tune. Not only do you want to keep tq below 425 or whatever you think is safe, but that is my limit on stockblocks, you also have to watch your timing and afrs. The higher the timing (means the higher the cylinder pressure)... So keep timing at a relitivley low level. Don't push the envelope. Also I like the stock motors to run a bit rich to keep from having a problem if your car decides it wants to run a bit lean on a pull late at night with a higher boost spike.
Last but not least is oiling. Oil is the blood of a motor and should be treated as such. All of your bearings and turbo needs oil to survive. You may have the best tune/stategy in the world but you can lose a motor due to a bearing failure, not just a rod failure. The Kiggly HLA ($170) is a great mod for a stock motor limiting how much oil goes to the head and keeps more in the pan to keep the bearings happy. It also increase the oil pressure for a motor that has oil squirters which is always a good thing. The other great mod to do is mod your oil pan with baffles like David B does, or get the AMS pan... The pickup tube in our cars can be made to run dry during hard cornering and hard acceleration. To help keep the oil moving to the back of the pan or side to side you should mod the pan. A lot of us even run 1/3 - 1/2 quart over on oil to help elevate that problem as well. Also lower timing helps the bearing to last longer too.
Another thing that helps the stock motors last longer are larger turbos. The larger the turbo, the later they spool, minimizing the large tq spike in lower rpms. For example a 500whp HTA Green will blow a stock motor before a 500whp FP Black car with the same tq level.
Also don't load your car up in a high gear/low rpm. ex: 5th gear on the interstate at 2000rpms and you floor it. That is a great way to huff a rod!!!
There are lots of little tricks that help the stock motor last longer. I'm sure your tuner will know what they are and will make sure you get a safe tune. I'm not scared of a 550whp motor as long as the tq is below 425.
Mikey
Last edited by BLKCarbonEVO; Mar 19, 2011 at 08:56 AM.
I agree with Mikey - I want to assume the Black puts less stress on my stocker than my BBK did. I think I was at 427ft/lbs on the BBK at 500whp and am just under 400 ft/lbs now on the Black at more than 500whp. What was Aaron making on the 86? Like 574 or something for a while, not saying it's gospel but it's been done 
I hate to say it....... But Mikey is correct, haha, I have pushed my setup on stock **** a lot and I am gonna push it more, but I won't go further then 450wtq as long as the tune can keep the tq rising rate after 4000rpm. Example: 400wtq at 5200rpm and by say 6000rpm wtq is at 450, but I would not recommend anyone to run more than 400-425 before 5500rpm.
As far as the long rods go, I stand by what I stated earlier, and Mikey is right that there are crappy rods that won't handle what they are "rated" for, and that even good rods with the wrong tune and the right situation can be devastating.
As far as the long rods go, I stand by what I stated earlier, and Mikey is right that there are crappy rods that won't handle what they are "rated" for, and that even good rods with the wrong tune and the right situation can be devastating.
I agree with Mikey - I want to assume the Black puts less stress on my stocker than my BBK did. I think I was at 427ft/lbs on the BBK at 500whp and am just under 400 ft/lbs now on the Black at more than 500whp. What was Aaron making on the 86? Like 574 or something for a while, not saying it's gospel but it's been done
I hate to say it....... But Mikey is correct, haha, I have pushed my setup on stock **** a lot and I am gonna push it more, but I won't go further then 450wtq as long as the tune can keep the tq rising rate after 4000rpm. Example: 400wtq at 5200rpm and by say 6000rpm wtq is at 450, but I would not recommend anyone to run more than 400-425 before 5500rpm.
As far as the long rods go, I stand by what I stated earlier, and Mikey is right that there are crappy rods that won't handle what they are "rated" for, and that even good rods with the wrong tune and the right situation can be devastating.
As far as the long rods go, I stand by what I stated earlier, and Mikey is right that there are crappy rods that won't handle what they are "rated" for, and that even good rods with the wrong tune and the right situation can be devastating.
btw, I'm ready to come back to Oak Harbor. I hate VaBeach!!! Fred is here this weekend staying with me. His girl is running a marathon tomorrow, 26.5 freaking miles... God I would DIE if I had to do that.
Mikey
U forum *****! Haha, I was trying to see if u were scanning the forums at 0200 ur time! No, but really u made good points, and they are by seeing this stuff first hand as have I. Just want this guy to get more actual fact than hearsay.
And man i havent heard from Freddy in a hot minute. Only 4 1/2 months and Im out fool, then this car is about to get a little nutty! And I don't run marathons, I will drive the car instead! Haha
And man i havent heard from Freddy in a hot minute. Only 4 1/2 months and Im out fool, then this car is about to get a little nutty! And I don't run marathons, I will drive the car instead! Haha
U forum *****! Haha, I was trying to see if u were scanning the forums at 0200 ur time! No, but really u made good points, and they are by seeing this stuff first hand as have I. Just want this guy to get more actual fact than hearsay.
And man i havent heard from Freddy in a hot minute. Only 4 1/2 months and Im out fool, then this car is about to get a little nutty! And I don't run marathons, I will drive the car instead! Haha
And man i havent heard from Freddy in a hot minute. Only 4 1/2 months and Im out fool, then this car is about to get a little nutty! And I don't run marathons, I will drive the car instead! Haha
Mikey