Pros and cons of ECU controlled boost?
I also run the Forge unos mbc and it works great, the only time I ever touch it is in the winter time to turn it down a little because boost is a little higher than I want. Lots of people also go to the 3 port to keep from getting that boost spike from mbc's. I guess it more of what prefer or want.
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Joined: Oct 2006
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From: MA
I'm hopefully picking my car up tomorrow that is currently getting the Hallman Pro MBC I had before replaced with a 3 port/ECU controlled boost setup. I'll be sure to update the thread with driving impressions. With the Hallman it spiked 26 psi and tapered down to 17 psi by redline. I'm normally a fan of "keep it simple stupid" which is why I had the MBC to begin with but I'm hoping having a smoother torque curve will keep the stock block happy on my E85 tune. Being able to switch between a 93 and E85 map is also a very nice feature.
Last edited by deadmeat; Jan 27, 2013 at 05:11 PM.
This is definitely opinion and not fact. I used to be one of those people that thought that until I did more research and talked with several high profile tuners on here about it. There's a reason people like Buschur, STM, and many others only run MBCs and it's not just because they're easier to tune.
I don't want to get into a big debate here but I don't think this statement is entirely accurate. From what I've seen and heard, the main advantage to an MBC is slightly faster spool, especially between gears. One of the reasons I'm considering moving to an MBC is because I know that I'm losing spool when shifting gears at the track. You can see it in my logs. Especially in 4th, you can see my WG opening before I actually hit full boost.
OP- The bottom line is do some more research and talk to a few more people before you decide which one you want to go with.
I don't want to get into a big debate here but I don't think this statement is entirely accurate. From what I've seen and heard, the main advantage to an MBC is slightly faster spool, especially between gears. One of the reasons I'm considering moving to an MBC is because I know that I'm losing spool when shifting gears at the track. You can see it in my logs. Especially in 4th, you can see my WG opening before I actually hit full boost.
OP- The bottom line is do some more research and talk to a few more people before you decide which one you want to go with.
Apparently you still need to do more research dude, the reason why a properly set up 3port outperforms an MBC is because it's an active piece of the set up, unlike an MBC which is completely inactive once it's set, therefore compensating for the inadequacies of the particular turbo set up.Your second statement is actually inaccurate, the 3 port has very little effect of boost in between gears, the biggest benefit of a properly set up 3 port is that it can actually hold the wastegate completely closed until desired boost is achieved to increase spool, which equates to way more than "slightly better spool", also the ability to control over boost in higher gears and compensate for atmospheric conditions (boost error correction) and the ability to run different maps with entirely different boost profiles, the ability to run just about any boost curve desired (specially useful when trying to make stock blocks keep torque down to survive big turbos), controlling tire spin in lower gears(gear dependent boost control) and the ability to drop boost on high knock as a failsafe, try that with an MBC
and let me know how it turns out!https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ec...-debate-2.html
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...rol-one-3.html
Last edited by VIIIdriver; Jan 27, 2013 at 05:00 PM.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that the ECU controls boost with open loop waste gate duty cycle maps. So the maps are hard tune for the diy guy.
I agree you can get fancy with holding boost etc through the gears but an MBC works well with less tuning headaches. I remember 3 port tuning in my WRX was easier because those maps are closed loop.
Apparently you still need to do more research dude, the reason why a properly set up 3port outperforms an MBC is because it's an active piece of the set up, unlike an MBC which is completely inactive once it's set, therefore compensating for the inadequacies of the particular turbo set up.
Your second statement is actually inaccurate, the 3 port has very little effect of boost in between gears, the biggest benefit of a properly set up 3 port is that it can actually hold the wastegate completely closed until desired boost is achieved to increase spool, which equates to way more than "slightly better spool", also the ability to control over boost in higher gears and compensate for atmospheric conditions (boost error correction) and the ability to run different maps with entirely different boost profiles, the ability to run just about any boost curve desired (specially useful when trying to make stock blocks keep torque down to survive big turbos), controlling tire spin in lower gears(gear dependent boost control) and the ability to drop boost on high knock as a failsafe, try that with an MBC and let me know how it turns out!
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ec...-debate-2.html
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...rol-one-3.html
I agree you can get fancy with holding boost etc through the gears but an MBC works well with less tuning headaches. I remember 3 port tuning in my WRX was easier because those maps are closed loop.
Apparently you still need to do more research dude, the reason why a properly set up 3port outperforms an MBC is because it's an active piece of the set up, unlike an MBC which is completely inactive once it's set, therefore compensating for the inadequacies of the particular turbo set up.Your second statement is actually inaccurate, the 3 port has very little effect of boost in between gears, the biggest benefit of a properly set up 3 port is that it can actually hold the wastegate completely closed until desired boost is achieved to increase spool, which equates to way more than "slightly better spool", also the ability to control over boost in higher gears and compensate for atmospheric conditions (boost error correction) and the ability to run different maps with entirely different boost profiles, the ability to run just about any boost curve desired (specially useful when trying to make stock blocks keep torque down to survive big turbos), controlling tire spin in lower gears(gear dependent boost control) and the ability to drop boost on high knock as a failsafe, try that with an MBC
and let me know how it turns out!https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ec...-debate-2.html
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...rol-one-3.html
Apparently you still need to do more research dude, the reason why a properly set up 3port outperforms an MBC is because it's an active piece of the set up, unlike an MBC which is completely inactive once it's set, therefore compensating for the inadequacies of the particular turbo set up.Your second statement is actually inaccurate, the 3 port has very little effect of boost in between gears, the biggest benefit of a properly set up 3 port is that it can actually hold the wastegate completely closed until desired boost is achieved to increase spool, which equates to way more than "slightly better spool", also the ability to control over boost in higher gears and compensate for atmospheric conditions (boost error correction) and the ability to run different maps with entirely different boost profiles, the ability to run just about any boost curve desired (specially useful when trying to make stock blocks keep torque down to survive big turbos), controlling tire spin in lower gears(gear dependent boost control) and the ability to drop boost on high knock as a failsafe, try that with an MBC
and let me know how it turns out!https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ec...-debate-2.html
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...rol-one-3.html
I was actually involved in a good part of the conversation on one of them. If you think I'm full of garbage that's fine. But try telling the guy with all the records (Emery) that 3 ports are better than MBCs.Anyway, like I said, I'm not turning the OPs thread into a debate. That's what those other threads are for and I highly suggest the OP read through them. The Intelligent and Friendly Debate thread has a ton of excellent dialogue and information
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that the ECU controls boost with open loop waste gate duty cycle maps. So the maps are hard tune for the diy guy.
I agree you can get fancy with holding boost etc through the gears but an MBC works well with less tuning headaches. I remember 3 port tuning in my WRX was easier because those maps are closed loop.
I agree you can get fancy with holding boost etc through the gears but an MBC works well with less tuning headaches. I remember 3 port tuning in my WRX was easier because those maps are closed loop.
That is very true, the 3port is not DIY friendly, which is why is so important to have a good tuner, also it's cheaper to buy and set up an MBC.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 88
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From: MA
I figured I'd update this since I just got my car back from switching from MBC to a Grimmspeed 3 port.
It definitely feels different that's for sure. The car certainly does not have any additional lag but when the torque kicks in it feels a LOT smoother. It doesn't quite have the kick in the *** that the MBC gives you but the power is still there.
Overall I'd say if you don't mind spending the money and want to have the absolute most power out of your setup then ECU controlled boost is probably the way to go. If I still was going to just run 93 I would have kept the MBC but since I recently discovered the wonder that is E85 having the ECU boost with map switching is really convenient. On top of that having a more reasonable torque curve will keep my stock rods happy.
I'm a big fan of "keep it simple stupid" but I gotta say I'm loving this new setup so far.
It definitely feels different that's for sure. The car certainly does not have any additional lag but when the torque kicks in it feels a LOT smoother. It doesn't quite have the kick in the *** that the MBC gives you but the power is still there.
Overall I'd say if you don't mind spending the money and want to have the absolute most power out of your setup then ECU controlled boost is probably the way to go. If I still was going to just run 93 I would have kept the MBC but since I recently discovered the wonder that is E85 having the ECU boost with map switching is really convenient. On top of that having a more reasonable torque curve will keep my stock rods happy.
I'm a big fan of "keep it simple stupid" but I gotta say I'm loving this new setup so far.
I figured I'd update this since I just got my car back from switching from MBC to a Grimmspeed 3 port.
It definitely feels different that's for sure. The car certainly does not have any additional lag but when the torque kicks in it feels a LOT smoother. It doesn't quite have the kick in the *** that the MBC gives you but the power is still there.
Overall I'd say if you don't mind spending the money and want to have the absolute most power out of your setup then ECU controlled boost is probably the way to go. If I still was going to just run 93 I would have kept the MBC but since I recently discovered the wonder that is E85 having the ECU boost with map switching is really convenient. On top of that having a more reasonable torque curve will keep my stock rods happy.
I'm a big fan of "keep it simple stupid" but I gotta say I'm loving this new setup so far.
It definitely feels different that's for sure. The car certainly does not have any additional lag but when the torque kicks in it feels a LOT smoother. It doesn't quite have the kick in the *** that the MBC gives you but the power is still there.
Overall I'd say if you don't mind spending the money and want to have the absolute most power out of your setup then ECU controlled boost is probably the way to go. If I still was going to just run 93 I would have kept the MBC but since I recently discovered the wonder that is E85 having the ECU boost with map switching is really convenient. On top of that having a more reasonable torque curve will keep my stock rods happy.
I'm a big fan of "keep it simple stupid" but I gotta say I'm loving this new setup so far.
Cool man I'm glad your liking your new setup.
One of the things you mentioned - being nicer to rods (and, in my case a 6 speed) - is why I switched to EBC. I am a DIY, it is not difficult to tune the EBC with Tephra V7. I am converted over to PSI-based tuning, FWIW. I have run many different types of MBC's and they are very simple devices. They also vary with the weather and are anything but "linear" in their operation. What I enjoy about the EBC are twofold:
Safety measures - if you set knock thresholds or coolant temp thresholds you can get insta-lower boost. I like peace of mind
More flexibility in the torque curve. Gone are the spikes and the creeps and the heeby-jeebies. During summer, I set mine to "hit" at 24 psi, then gradually raise to 26 psi by 6500 RPM. At least using VD, it makes for a very smooth torque curve without that rod-bending, trans-destroying kick in the nuts boost spike like my Hallman and Perrin MBC's were prone to do.
If you have no need to worry about the above, I would certainly stick with an MBC.
Safety measures - if you set knock thresholds or coolant temp thresholds you can get insta-lower boost. I like peace of mind
More flexibility in the torque curve. Gone are the spikes and the creeps and the heeby-jeebies. During summer, I set mine to "hit" at 24 psi, then gradually raise to 26 psi by 6500 RPM. At least using VD, it makes for a very smooth torque curve without that rod-bending, trans-destroying kick in the nuts boost spike like my Hallman and Perrin MBC's were prone to do.
If you have no need to worry about the above, I would certainly stick with an MBC.
Ian0611 its hard for most of us to argue with emery and his numbers same with dave's i understand the keeping it simple rule but i would argue to say that there is not a one size fits all and its more application dependent having used features like boost by gear in a fwd car and dropped 1.3 secs off my time with no other changes i am pretty much hooked i would rather pull out a laptop then half to spend another min under my hood i spend enough time there checking for leaks cleaning looking for lose bolts ect.
The way I see it, it's like hammer vs Swiss army knife. The hammer (MBC) is great at what it does (fast spool) and is very simple, but it's uses are limited. Swiss army (EBCS) is much more versatile (gear based boost, dual maps, boost error correction, make your boost curve exactly how you want it), but if you don't know how to use it, it's pretty useless.
When I bought my car it had an MBC. it was "fine", but after switching to the Grimmspeed 3-port, I wouldn't go back to the MBC.
To each their own.
When I bought my car it had an MBC. it was "fine", but after switching to the Grimmspeed 3-port, I wouldn't go back to the MBC.
To each their own.
Ian0611 its hard for most of us to argue with emery and his numbers same with dave's i understand the keeping it simple rule but i would argue to say that there is not a one size fits all and its more application dependent having used features like boost by gear in a fwd car and dropped 1.3 secs off my time with no other changes i am pretty much hooked i would rather pull out a laptop then half to spend another min under my hood i spend enough time there checking for leaks cleaning looking for lose bolts ect.
I didn't mean to come off sounding like an MBC was always the best way to go. From an ultimate performance standpoint maybe it is, but even that is still debatable. There are definitely a lot of advantages to using a 3 port and you listed a number of them. The main purpose of my posts were to help the OP sift through some misinformation and to encourage him to do some more research before making a decision. Ultimately it comes down to each person deciding what their goals our for their car and then choosing the boost controller that helps them best achieve those goals.
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