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SS FP RED for road race?

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Old Dec 28, 2017 | 06:40 PM
  #31  
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To the OP, Have you run a few track days at big power? A 450-550whp Evo on the road course can be pretty demanding for the driver and the rest of the car.

Few things to consider. I'm a big fan of keeping it simple. The RS motors team ran a JB fp green IIRC on most of the boost for a while making 480whp and its undoubtedly going to spool up faster then an EFR magic tipped turbocharger blessed by Jesus. Their car was plenty fast at that level. The big factor was Ethanol keeping things cool. EGT's and coolant temp. Along with a road course friendly tune up. Nothing is going to live well being rattled.

A cast or stock manifold at moderate levels on Ethanol will have less chance of cracking then some tubular manifolds. Material, welding, weight, and fatigue are all a factor.

Back pressure is the devil in the end but your goals need to be considered. If you want a big power time attack car its going to live a better life with a large turbocharger with less backpressure. For the occasional track day at 400-450whp where the rest of the car will operate better at that level something like an MHI green/red would be fine.

For drag a MHI green or Red will make 500-600ishwhp and run pretty well.

Keeping a stock style manifold preserves the way the car sounds. Going to a tubular T3 or vband is going to change the sound of the car.


Of course with any combo its important to have proper oil pressure. The modded stock pan from New Zealand has plenty of great data on real tires to prove its a great upgrade unless you are going dry sump ( the real answer for track guys )
Old Dec 28, 2017 | 07:08 PM
  #32  
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Or you could keep things simple and stick with a stock-frame, twin scroll turbo and make all the power you could use, fits without custom parts, and will last as long as you own the car (if used properly). Maybe not what you are wanting, but it's a viable option. If you like modding and fabbing stuff up for your car, then that's another story, of course LOL.

+1 on 25psi for track days. Mine peaks at 25psi and tapers to about 18psi or so. I never see a bit of knock and never worry about pushing anything too hard. I'm not gonna run 10s in the quarter, but it sure is fast around a road course.
I've run the same boost levels on an MHI Green (it still blew up after <2000 miles), 71HTA, and now my stock IX turbo.

P.S. I have yet to see tubular manifolds that don't eventually crack.
Old Dec 28, 2017 | 07:20 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Abacus
To the OP, Have you run a few track days at big power? A 450-550whp Evo on the road course can be pretty demanding for the driver and the rest of the car.

Few things to consider. I'm a big fan of keeping it simple. The RS motors team ran a JB fp green IIRC on most of the boost for a while making 480whp and its undoubtedly going to spool up faster then an EFR magic tipped turbocharger blessed by Jesus. Their car was plenty fast at that level. The big factor was Ethanol keeping things cool. EGT's and coolant temp. Along with a road course friendly tune up. Nothing is going to live well being rattled.

A cast or stock manifold at moderate levels on Ethanol will have less chance of cracking then some tubular manifolds. Material, welding, weight, and fatigue are all a factor.

Back pressure is the devil in the end but your goals need to be considered. If you want a big power time attack car its going to live a better life with a large turbocharger with less backpressure. For the occasional track day at 400-450whp where the rest of the car will operate better at that level something like an MHI green/red would be fine.

For drag a MHI green or Red will make 500-600ishwhp and run pretty well.

Keeping a stock style manifold preserves the way the car sounds. Going to a tubular T3 or vband is going to change the sound of the car.


Of course with any combo its important to have proper oil pressure. The modded stock pan from New Zealand has plenty of great data on real tires to prove its a great upgrade unless you are going dry sump ( the real answer for track guys )
No, I haven't had the chance to drive on a road course. Plenty of drag racing though. I plan to hit some Drivers Edge courses and attend the RS academy to get my feet wet. I will run the car detuned to help keep the power down at first then walk it up. Definitely not trying to be competitive at time attack but do want to have a car that can do pretty well at both drag racing and running on a road course. I love to drive and am finally at a spot in life where I can afford to hit some road courses.

I am going to go for the 2.2l since it has a better rod to stroke and will hopfully last a little longer if I keep the RPM down. I was considering the 2.3l to save money/time but in the end I think the extra wait while saving will be worth it.

Texas Motor Sport Ranch is within an hour or so of me and would like to start tearing it up once a month or so in the distant future. I need to build the car and get some seat time before paying for a membership and monthly dues. That way I make sure I am ready to take full advantage of it.

The more I have been looking at the turbo kits and read people's responses and setups, I think a Red will suit me well. A T4 TS setup seems sexy but not sure it is cost effective for my current goals. So, I am going to buy a new MHI housing to not have to worry about it being fatigued or having a cracked divider. I am going to pull my current T3 HTA 3582r have it inspected by FP then sell it and the cast R2 cams.

I was hoping to get in on a group buy for the RaceFab pan but it seems to have fizzled out. I will be contacting them anyway if the group buy does not go forward.
Old Dec 28, 2017 | 07:30 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by kaj
Or you could keep things simple and stick with a stock-frame, twin scroll turbo and make all the power you could use, fits without custom parts, and will last as long as you own the car (if used properly). Maybe not what you are wanting, but it's a viable option. If you like modding and fabbing stuff up for your car, then that's another story, of course LOL.

+1 on 25psi for track days. Mine peaks at 25psi and tapers to about 18psi or so. I never see a bit of knock and never worry about pushing anything too hard. I'm not gonna run 10s in the quarter, but it sure is fast around a road course.
I've run the same boost levels on an MHI Green (it still blew up after <2000 miles), 71HTA, and now my stock IX turbo.

P.S. I have yet to see tubular manifolds that don't eventually crack.
This is where I am leaning after much thought. I have almost all I need to run the RED and loved my old JB RED in the stock block. It was tons of fun. I just wanted to fully explore all the different options available. The SS housing seems like a deal but not fully what I am looking for. After reading what everyone has said and doing a ton of searching, I am going back to stock frame.

I greatly appreciate everyone helping me and offering advice/insight.

I hope this thread helps others as well.
Old Dec 28, 2017 | 07:32 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by mt057
So, I am going to buy a new MHI housing to not have to worry about it being fatigued or having a cracked divider. I am going to pull my current T3 HTA 3582r have it inspected by FP then sell it and the cast R2 cams.

I was hoping to get in on a group buy for the RaceFab pan but it seems to have fizzled out. I will be contacting them anyway if the group buy does not go forward.
You won't find a new MHI housing, they have been gone for a while now. On the bright side, FP will now machine housings with cracked volutes. That's huge for those of us with small stockpiles of them LOL. Also good because people that had mint housings were charging a ridiculous amount for them. They all crack there eventually, by the way, but it doesn't hurt performance. None of the dividers in any of my turbos have cracked, so I can't really comment on that (other than to say mine have all been fine LOL).

There are a couple guys trying to get a third for one of the oil pans I use. I posted a thread about the oil pan, here on EvoM. Not sure it's what you are looking for, but it's local, viable option.
Old Dec 28, 2017 | 07:41 PM
  #36  
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You should be able to break even on the turbo stuff. I've never really looked into the price differences to build a 2.2 vs a 2.0 as I've never really thought a 2.0 was that lacking. Obviously a 2.2 is going to have plenty of advantages but if you're not looking to get super competitive would it be worth it to save a bit of money and stick with a more basic engine build?

More oil is definitely more better, after losing an engine from starvation this past season I've begun building my own pan similar to the other options out there. Consider a larger oil cooler as well, being in TX I'm sure you will have plenty of hot track days. If you don't already have an oil pressure gauge that would be a good idea too.

As said before 450+ whp on a road course is a handful, even at 400whp I'm still getting used to the car on track. Don't overlook brakes; braided lines, good fluid, high temp pads and decent rotors go a long way without breaking the bank.
Old Dec 28, 2017 | 07:50 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by ayoustin
You should be able to break even on the turbo stuff. I've never really looked into the price differences to build a 2.2 vs a 2.0 as I've never really thought a 2.0 was that lacking. Obviously a 2.2 is going to have plenty of advantages but if you're not looking to get super competitive would it be worth it to save a bit of money and stick with a more basic engine build?

More oil is definitely more better, after losing an engine from starvation this past season I've begun building my own pan similar to the other options out there. Consider a larger oil cooler as well, being in TX I'm sure you will have plenty of hot track days. If you don't already have an oil pressure gauge that would be a good idea too.

As said before 450+ whp on a road course is a handful, even at 400whp I'm still getting used to the car on track. Don't overlook brakes; braided lines, good fluid, high temp pads and decent rotors go a long way without breaking the bank.
I've never wished I had anything other than a 2.0 either haha. I now have around 350whp and am faster than I was at 450whp. With 235 R-S4s and 350whp, I'm only 3sec slower around Buttonwillow CW13 than I was with 450whp and 255 NT-01s. Not bad, IMO. I'm still waiting for my skill level to catch up. We'll see what I end up doing when I feel the car is holding me back.

The oil cooler thing is a good point, though there are other problems that come with it: I now have around 7qts of oil in the car and a Setrab kit from MAP. During winter here (40-50* temps) and I can't get the oil temp above 140*. I had to make a cover for the cooler. Still taking a long time to heat up, though. LOL.
Old Dec 28, 2017 | 07:56 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by kaj
You won't find a new MHI housing, they have been gone for a while now. On the bright side, FP will now machine housings with cracked volutes. That's huge for those of us with small stockpiles of them LOL. Also good because people that had mint housings were charging a ridiculous amount for them. They all crack there eventually, by the way, but it doesn't hurt performance. None of the dividers in any of my turbos have cracked, so I can't really comment on that (other than to say mine have all been fine LOL).

There are a couple guys trying to get a third for one of the oil pans I use. I posted a thread about the oil pan, here on EvoM. Not sure it's what you are looking for, but it's local, viable option.
I found two places that supposedly still offer them. The housing is 750 though. I will see if I can find a good used one first but I am just so paranoid. My last RED grenaded and have never figured out why. Not sure if the turbine just gave way or if the housing did but it destroyed the divider and wheel in a spectacular fashion.

I will look into the thread you mentioned about the oil pan.
Old Dec 28, 2017 | 08:04 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by ayoustin
You should be able to break even on the turbo stuff. I've never really looked into the price differences to build a 2.2 vs a 2.0 as I've never really thought a 2.0 was that lacking. Obviously a 2.2 is going to have plenty of advantages but if you're not looking to get super competitive would it be worth it to save a bit of money and stick with a more basic engine build?

More oil is definitely more better, after losing an engine from starvation this past season I've begun building my own pan similar to the other options out there. Consider a larger oil cooler as well, being in TX I'm sure you will have plenty of hot track days. If you don't already have an oil pressure gauge that would be a good idea too.

As said before 450+ whp on a road course is a handful, even at 400whp I'm still getting used to the car on track. Don't overlook brakes; braided lines, good fluid, high temp pads and decent rotors go a long way without breaking the bank.
I have an RS and love the extra grunt of the 2.3l so kinda want to just go for the 2.2l. The extra displacement should be fun and help spool (as you know). The 2.0 would definitely be cheaper though. I still have a little time before I purchase a short block as I want to do a ton of research but am leaning toward the 2.2

An upgraded oil cooler is a must! We hit 100+ degrees for months at a time. The track will be blistering. Going to buy track pads, rotors and ss lines for sure before tracking it. This is also why I have to maintain AC.

The car will be detuned for track days until I can get a hang of the power and on kill mode for drag racing days lol.
Old Dec 28, 2017 | 08:05 PM
  #40  
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How do you guys feel about 5w-50 full syn? It is recommended for the RS and figure it should be good for the EVO as well.
Old Dec 28, 2017 | 08:06 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by mt057
I found two places that supposedly still offer them. The housing is 750 though. I will see if I can find a good used one first but I am just so paranoid. My last RED grenaded and have never figured out why. Not sure if the turbine just gave way or if the housing did but it destroyed the divider and wheel in a spectacular fashion.

I will look into the thread you mentioned about the oil pan.
I had a green take a crap also. I had a perfect, zero-mileage housing that got eaten up. The turbine wheel shattered and destroyed all turbo parts except the comp housing. I had less than 2000 miles on the turbo. FP couldn't really tell me why it happened, so I decided to not try another. I JUST dropped $1,200 and now they wanted me to spend another $900 and we still don't know what happened? Nah.
I was gonna do another HTA71 (my all-time favorite turbo EVER), but the stock IX is performing so well, I really see no reason to change it.
But! here's to hoping you have better luck with whichever you choose!
If you decide to go the MHI route, I have a housing I'm not using. Previous owner busted a bolt off where it mounts to the exh. mani, so needs to be drilled out. I've been too lazy to mess with it, so will let it for a reasonable price. I'd assume the volute has a crack in it. Just in case you don't wanna spend $750.


Originally Posted by mt057
How do you guys feel about 5w-50 full syn? It is recommended for the RS and figure it should be good for the EVO as well.
I used 50w for a while, but was seeing scary high oil pressure. My shortblock is OEM, so I have no reason to run such a thick oil. I was concerned about it not getting where I needed it. I figured I needed the heavy oil for running in 100* temps. Turns out I didn't. LOL.
If your engine is built with looser tolerances, you may need heavier oil. In the end, I'd go with what your builder recommends.
Old Dec 28, 2017 | 08:17 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by kaj

The oil cooler thing is a good point, though there are other problems that come with it: I now have around 7qts of oil in the car and a Setrab kit from MAP. During winter here (40-50* temps) and I can't get the oil temp above 140*. I had to make a cover for the cooler. Still taking a long time to heat up, though. LOL.
Lol I get around that problem by not driving my car in the winter. But that's mostly because of the whole "snow and no tracks being open" problem.


A 5-50 oil is pretty uncommon. How often you plan to change your oil will play an important role with an oil like that. Usually the larger the difference between the hot and cold viscosities, the faster the oil will shear. The reason for this is because oils like that have large amounts of additive packages in them to allow for such a dynamic viscosity change and those additives are the first thing to shear out of the oil. For this coming season I'll be running Amsoil dom 15-50 oil and probably changing every 3rd or 4th track day depending on how an analysis looks.
Old Dec 29, 2017 | 06:13 AM
  #43  
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Abacus & OP MT057

RS Motors is renowned for running EFR 7163 on 2.3 stroker.
And they built same for setup for Ken Twaits Ultimate Street Car Challenge.

This setup was current through start of 2017, 2.3 & 7163!

And that is what Ken used to get 2nd overall last year!

In 2017 RS Motors went BIG, 2.3 still but swapping 3076 & 3582 Turbo’s as required.
With Drenth sequential gearbox!
All out race cars.

Ronie can attest to the facts.
Ken Twaits also went big, Drenth sequential plus big turbo.

But 2nd overall is plenty good on stock 5 speed, 2.3 with 7163.
True street car, barely beaten by monsters with 700bhp.
Old Dec 29, 2017 | 11:14 AM
  #44  
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kaj
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Originally Posted by ayoustin
Lol I get around that problem by not driving my car in the winter. But that's mostly because of the whole "snow and no tracks being open" problem..
If I lived in an area with snow, I just don't know that I could resist driving the Evo EVERY DAY
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