View Poll Results: XEDE or UTEC
XEDE
70
50.36%
UTEC
69
49.64%
Voters: 139. You may not vote on this poll
XEDE or UTEC?
Its because everyone can agree to disagree.. what you choose for tuning is as subjective as what you choose for appearance, I can only offer you what I know about the products I work with. The ultimate decision is yours only after weighing your options.
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From: Pottsville, Pennsylvania
Im 99% sure that I will have Turbotrix do my tuning for me. If they have experience with the XEDE then that may seal the deal. I'd love the AEM, but im not sure if I can justify the cost for my needs and the XEDE seems to have more features than the UTEC. The main one for me being the ability to control ignition timing. I wont be making my purchase until spring time anyway, but I just can't seem to make up my mind. Right now it looks as though the XEDE is the best bang for the buck for my situation.
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From: Pottsville, Pennsylvania
One thing that still confuses me about the XEDE is that Ive seen people use the XEDE and an X-flash. If your using the XEDE, why would you need the flash?
Its the XEDEflash: a $100 flash that removes the rev limiter, moves the boost cut interruption up, and takes away the top speed limiter. It can also be used if you swap to larger injectors.
The XFlash is required to avoid fuel cut, alter RPM limit, Scale your injectors, and a few other things.
The UTEC Is capable of controlling timing, in fact, it has absolute control of timing. In addition its capable of closed loop boost control (with an inexpensive addon map sensor). With the new firmware and open loop fueling, it can eliminate fuel and boost cut, scale your injectors, alter your RPM limit without the need for any sort of reflash. Additionally if you already have a reflashed ECU, you DO NOT have to be concerned about removing the flash since the UTEC with V1.6 firmware controls boost, timing, and the injectors directly.
I just don't buy into the "offsetting" of sensor signals do trick the ECU into doing what you want. First, if you are altering the MAF signal, you indirectly will alter your timing.. which you then have to alter back by offsetting the ignition timing, however there's only so much adjustment you can make before you cause other problems. Then you have to deal with the ECU and its knock control features, which means your tuning a moving target. On the XEDE if I recall there's some knock sensor attenuation which alters the signal going to the ECU.
On the UTEC it has its own knock control which roughly mirrors the sensitivity of the stock ECU. The UTEC is also capable of additional enrichment based on several parameters. Additionally the UTEC is ENTIRELY plug and play..
You can get the same features of the Xede for half the price on the EManage, or ECU+
The Xede is more forgiving of the enduser however, since you are offsetting signals you don't need to have any idea of your base timing or fueling in order to make changes... However your base timing can be anywhere from a low-detonation to a high detonation map, and therefore at any particular time you can make too much correction. Although I don't know all the features of the Xflash, I think one of them is to make the maps more similar so eachother... To me this is just too many compromises to see this as anything more than an expensive piggyback.
Don't get me wrong Both the Utec and XEDE will get the job done, But for the money you just get alot more with the UTEC, but with the additional control, you have the additional responsibility to doing it right, which means doing it professionally on a dyno or having a good understanding of tuning. Poor tuning breaks parts.. Period, you just cannot blame your engine management for that, PERIOD, if you do, then you shouldn't be doing it yourself.
Prove to me without a doubt that you can just plug it in, and it can do the job, without dealing with the quirks of the ECU, WITHOUT requiring you to get a reflash to alter settings like injector scaling, fuel cut, boost cut, rpm limit, equalizing fuel/timing maps to allow for consistent tuning and finally desensitising the Knock sensor signal so the ECU is no longer getting the raw signal. Heck, because of that you can't tune around MAF anomolies caused by aftermarket intakes. The Xede boost control works by controlling the stock solenoid, and putting a relay in its place that clicks loudly inside the car for the stock ECU to see, plus it requires you to make a modification or two to your wiring harness.. Just way too many Adhoc solutions for my taste...
But this is only my opinion.. the Xede does have a few good things currently, that is Shiv, he's a cool guy and goes all over the USA doing tunes for you folks, and there's a good selection of base maps for their common modifications. It has also been around longer.
Sorry about what sounds like a rant, but if you want to set it and forget it, A reflash is your best option.. If you want the logging and control and features that rival those of a full standalone, get a UTEC.
The UTEC Is capable of controlling timing, in fact, it has absolute control of timing. In addition its capable of closed loop boost control (with an inexpensive addon map sensor). With the new firmware and open loop fueling, it can eliminate fuel and boost cut, scale your injectors, alter your RPM limit without the need for any sort of reflash. Additionally if you already have a reflashed ECU, you DO NOT have to be concerned about removing the flash since the UTEC with V1.6 firmware controls boost, timing, and the injectors directly.
I just don't buy into the "offsetting" of sensor signals do trick the ECU into doing what you want. First, if you are altering the MAF signal, you indirectly will alter your timing.. which you then have to alter back by offsetting the ignition timing, however there's only so much adjustment you can make before you cause other problems. Then you have to deal with the ECU and its knock control features, which means your tuning a moving target. On the XEDE if I recall there's some knock sensor attenuation which alters the signal going to the ECU.
On the UTEC it has its own knock control which roughly mirrors the sensitivity of the stock ECU. The UTEC is also capable of additional enrichment based on several parameters. Additionally the UTEC is ENTIRELY plug and play..
You can get the same features of the Xede for half the price on the EManage, or ECU+
The Xede is more forgiving of the enduser however, since you are offsetting signals you don't need to have any idea of your base timing or fueling in order to make changes... However your base timing can be anywhere from a low-detonation to a high detonation map, and therefore at any particular time you can make too much correction. Although I don't know all the features of the Xflash, I think one of them is to make the maps more similar so eachother... To me this is just too many compromises to see this as anything more than an expensive piggyback.
Don't get me wrong Both the Utec and XEDE will get the job done, But for the money you just get alot more with the UTEC, but with the additional control, you have the additional responsibility to doing it right, which means doing it professionally on a dyno or having a good understanding of tuning. Poor tuning breaks parts.. Period, you just cannot blame your engine management for that, PERIOD, if you do, then you shouldn't be doing it yourself.
Prove to me without a doubt that you can just plug it in, and it can do the job, without dealing with the quirks of the ECU, WITHOUT requiring you to get a reflash to alter settings like injector scaling, fuel cut, boost cut, rpm limit, equalizing fuel/timing maps to allow for consistent tuning and finally desensitising the Knock sensor signal so the ECU is no longer getting the raw signal. Heck, because of that you can't tune around MAF anomolies caused by aftermarket intakes. The Xede boost control works by controlling the stock solenoid, and putting a relay in its place that clicks loudly inside the car for the stock ECU to see, plus it requires you to make a modification or two to your wiring harness.. Just way too many Adhoc solutions for my taste...
But this is only my opinion.. the Xede does have a few good things currently, that is Shiv, he's a cool guy and goes all over the USA doing tunes for you folks, and there's a good selection of base maps for their common modifications. It has also been around longer.
Sorry about what sounds like a rant, but if you want to set it and forget it, A reflash is your best option.. If you want the logging and control and features that rival those of a full standalone, get a UTEC.
Last edited by MalibuJack; Sep 23, 2004 at 05:52 AM.
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Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Apex, NC
I think with the new version of the UTEC (1.6) coming out the UTEC has many more features then the XEDE. With these features the UTEC is much closer to a full standalone then it is to a piggyback system.
Originally Posted by Reignman
I think with the new version of the UTEC (1.6) coming out the UTEC has many more features then the XEDE. With these features the UTEC is much closer to a full standalone then it is to a piggyback system.
Originally Posted by MalibuJack
The XFlash is required to avoid fuel cut, alter RPM limit, Scale your injectors, and a few other things.
The UTEC Is capable of controlling timing, in fact, it has absolute control of timing. In addition its capable of closed loop boost control (with an inexpensive addon map sensor). With the new firmware and open loop fueling, it can eliminate fuel and boost cut, scale your injectors, alter your RPM limit without the need for any sort of reflash. Additionally if you already have a reflashed ECU, you DO NOT have to be concerned about removing the flash since the UTEC with V1.6 firmware controls boost, timing, and the injectors directly.
I just don't buy into the "offsetting" of sensor signals do trick the ECU into doing what you want. First, if you are altering the MAF signal, you indirectly will alter your timing.. which you then have to alter back by offsetting the ignition timing, however there's only so much adjustment you can make before you cause other problems. Then you have to deal with the ECU and its knock control features, which means your tuning a moving target. On the XEDE if I recall there's some knock sensor attenuation which alters the signal going to the ECU.
On the UTEC it has its own knock control which roughly mirrors the sensitivity of the stock ECU. The UTEC is also capable of additional enrichment based on several parameters. Additionally the UTEC is ENTIRELY plug and play..
You can get the same features of the Xede for half the price on the EManage, or ECU+
The Xede is more forgiving of the enduser however, since you are offsetting signals you don't need to have any idea of your base timing or fueling in order to make changes... However your base timing can be anywhere from a low-detonation to a high detonation map, and therefore at any particular time you can make too much correction. Although I don't know all the features of the Xflash, I think one of them is to make the maps more similar so eachother... To me this is just too many compromises to see this as anything more than an expensive piggyback.
Don't get me wrong Both the Utec and XEDE will get the job done, But for the money you just get alot more with the UTEC, but with the additional control, you have the additional responsibility to doing it right, which means doing it professionally on a dyno or having a good understanding of tuning. Poor tuning breaks parts.. Period, you just cannot blame your engine management for that, PERIOD, if you do, then you shouldn't be doing it yourself.
Prove to me without a doubt that you can just plug it in, and it can do the job, without dealing with the quirks of the ECU, WITHOUT requiring you to get a reflash to alter settings like injector scaling, fuel cut, boost cut, rpm limit, equalizing fuel/timing maps to allow for consistent tuning and finally desensitising the Knock sensor signal so the ECU is no longer getting the raw signal. Heck, because of that you can't tune around MAF anomolies caused by aftermarket intakes. The Xede boost control works by controlling the stock solenoid, and putting a relay in its place that clicks loudly inside the car for the stock ECU to see, plus it requires you to make a modification or two to your wiring harness.. Just way too many Adhoc solutions for my taste...
But this is only my opinion.. the Xede does have a few good things currently, that is Shiv, he's a cool guy and goes all over the USA doing tunes for you folks, and there's a good selection of base maps for their common modifications. It has also been around longer.
Sorry about what sounds like a rant, but if you want to set it and forget it, A reflash is your best option.. If you want the logging and control and features that rival those of a full standalone, get a UTEC.
The UTEC Is capable of controlling timing, in fact, it has absolute control of timing. In addition its capable of closed loop boost control (with an inexpensive addon map sensor). With the new firmware and open loop fueling, it can eliminate fuel and boost cut, scale your injectors, alter your RPM limit without the need for any sort of reflash. Additionally if you already have a reflashed ECU, you DO NOT have to be concerned about removing the flash since the UTEC with V1.6 firmware controls boost, timing, and the injectors directly.
I just don't buy into the "offsetting" of sensor signals do trick the ECU into doing what you want. First, if you are altering the MAF signal, you indirectly will alter your timing.. which you then have to alter back by offsetting the ignition timing, however there's only so much adjustment you can make before you cause other problems. Then you have to deal with the ECU and its knock control features, which means your tuning a moving target. On the XEDE if I recall there's some knock sensor attenuation which alters the signal going to the ECU.
On the UTEC it has its own knock control which roughly mirrors the sensitivity of the stock ECU. The UTEC is also capable of additional enrichment based on several parameters. Additionally the UTEC is ENTIRELY plug and play..
You can get the same features of the Xede for half the price on the EManage, or ECU+
The Xede is more forgiving of the enduser however, since you are offsetting signals you don't need to have any idea of your base timing or fueling in order to make changes... However your base timing can be anywhere from a low-detonation to a high detonation map, and therefore at any particular time you can make too much correction. Although I don't know all the features of the Xflash, I think one of them is to make the maps more similar so eachother... To me this is just too many compromises to see this as anything more than an expensive piggyback.
Don't get me wrong Both the Utec and XEDE will get the job done, But for the money you just get alot more with the UTEC, but with the additional control, you have the additional responsibility to doing it right, which means doing it professionally on a dyno or having a good understanding of tuning. Poor tuning breaks parts.. Period, you just cannot blame your engine management for that, PERIOD, if you do, then you shouldn't be doing it yourself.
Prove to me without a doubt that you can just plug it in, and it can do the job, without dealing with the quirks of the ECU, WITHOUT requiring you to get a reflash to alter settings like injector scaling, fuel cut, boost cut, rpm limit, equalizing fuel/timing maps to allow for consistent tuning and finally desensitising the Knock sensor signal so the ECU is no longer getting the raw signal. Heck, because of that you can't tune around MAF anomolies caused by aftermarket intakes. The Xede boost control works by controlling the stock solenoid, and putting a relay in its place that clicks loudly inside the car for the stock ECU to see, plus it requires you to make a modification or two to your wiring harness.. Just way too many Adhoc solutions for my taste...
But this is only my opinion.. the Xede does have a few good things currently, that is Shiv, he's a cool guy and goes all over the USA doing tunes for you folks, and there's a good selection of base maps for their common modifications. It has also been around longer.
Sorry about what sounds like a rant, but if you want to set it and forget it, A reflash is your best option.. If you want the logging and control and features that rival those of a full standalone, get a UTEC.
I disagree on a lot of this. Have you tuned an XEDE on any car yet, Jack? At that point, I believe we would have a more fair comparison out of you.
For 100% certainty I don't think the average person is ready to jump into static timing. As noted before, I've seen some "professional" paid tuners that suck with the UTEC. I've heard too many dyno operator/tuners say: "The UTEC either really likes your car or really hates it. I can get some cars that it will make great power on, and others it won't." When the fueling is in a safe range and you're getting random misfire or knock events, it is safe to say that something stinks. About 5% of the UTEC cars I've seen on the dyno are ever straight needle run-to-run consistent. I haven't heard about Mitsubishis losing coil packs yet, but some long term Subarus have. There are more than a few of them with dead coil packs from the UTEC overdriving them. Here's just a sample of many threads out there commenting on the subject- http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...tec+coil+packs The UTEC has still been on the market for the Evolution for less than a year, and all the Subaru UTEC gremlins didn't manifest overnight. Long term usage and satisfaction is my #1 fear with this product.
As far as your comments on "XFlash", let me clear that up. XFlash is reflashing with tuning parameters for air:fuel as well as timing. This costs $400, and can be custom tuned (on a dyno) for any specific car for a bit more. The XEDEflash is $100 and does the things we both mentioned above: raises rev and boost cut limiters, as well as scaling the injectors. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the most current available version firmware of the UTEC still requires a basic reflash if you want these paramenters, right? Even with the $100 added onto the price of the XEDE for the XEDEflash, its still less expensive than a UTEC.
While you might not like using offsets of sensors for tuning, but I've seen it to be far more repeatable than any UTEC tune. Yes, altering your air:fuel will definitely have some effect on your timing, but then the timing offsets are there for control as well. Once you manipulate those to where you need them, the car is closer to being dialed in. I don't know what these "other problems" are that you are speaking of. There is a tiny bit of knock sensor desensitizing available, but its maximum value is password protected at a very low attenuation rate. Put on the headphones, and I can pretty much promise you that an XEDE car at max end-user knock sensitivity pulled will still be quieter than 95% of the UTEC self-tunes out there.
I love this feature/built in safeguard of the XEDE. With the protection in place, you almost can't hurt the car with air:fuel or timing. I had a hot tune once that was a bit aggressive and when the XEDE saw knock, it pulled timing as well as boost! I went into the map, backed the timing off a bit at the offending spot in the powerband, and -voila- stable boost returned. Will a UTEC do that? I'm not saying that you can't blow up a car with an XEDE, you get someone who is inept enough, and you can blow up anything by using ridiculous amounts of boost. What I'm inferring is that it has a really nice margin of safety that I've never seen a UTEC exibit. Basically, the XEDE makes all the power a UTEC will, but gives the tuner none of its headache.
Lets talk about user interface and cell manipulation for a minute. The UTEC interface is quite poor and extremely cumbersome to operate in comparison to the XEDE's, and manipulation of cells is a monster PITA and the antithesis of "timely", particularly when your main goal is repeatability, which any tuner worth his salt requires first and foremost.
Comparing an XEDE to an eManage or ECU+ is asinine. The GReddy eManage has a crapier interface than the UTEC, and is even less user friendly. The ECU+ is a great alternative to a reflash, but lacks the ultimate features that come through firmware updates of a more supported piggy like the XEDE and the UTEC.
Regarding your "making low and high det maps more similar to each other", Again, you're confusing the term 'XFlash'. The low-det and high-maps are still fully retained with an XEDE w/ XEDEflash. We've seen cars toggle between them on the dyno before. They're certainly not similar, as they aren't stock. The XEDEflash does nothing more than what is outlined above, which is almost identical to what the most recent firmware UTEC required (if you wanted those features) IIRC.
About your intake jab, that's not an XEDE thing, that's a Shiv thing, and from what I've seen on the dyno, the stock airbox will always equal or eclipse an aftermarket intake with tuning for both. ANYBODY knows that if you pull the stock airbox and put a CAI in the car, that the resulting a:f numbers will be leaner. The reason Shiv doesn't recommend an intake is because his shelf maps were tuned for the stock airbox. On a custom tune, that strong recommendation goes out the window for his customers, as he will tune the car accordingly. I had a WAI intake, but even with tuning, couldn't make anymore power than the stock airbox did, so I pulled it and sold it. We could also argue that WAIs have dramatically higher varying temperatures than a stock airbox, and thus aren't the best way to go for repeatability, but that's kind of getting off topic and out of the scope of this thread. It has already been debated ad nauseum on these forums anyway.
Back to XEDE boost control, the newest models have a provision to take away the clicking of the stock solenoid. That's kind of a petty complaint, IMO, as the clicking on older XEDEs like mine can't even be heard over the A/C blower on low. You might not like its boost control in this manner, but it you get a really nasty knock event from crap gas and it pulls boost, you'll appreciate it a lot.
I guess the main place that we differ is that I don't believe the UTEC will get it done as well as the XEDE in the long run. But then again, you didn't come into your Evo out of a WRX and have reason to fear all these future storm warnings some of us are predicting. I like TurboXS. I think their exhaust components rock and the staff is awesome. But none of their engine management solutions will ever again be equipped on any car I own.
If you want a cheap solution with 75% of the power, get a reflash. If you want full OBDII sensor retention, never-ending repeatability, 95%+ the power output of a stand alone, and some of the best margin of safety currently offered in the industry, buy an XEDE. If you're really comfortable with tuning static timing, don't mind the extra money, and playing possible Russian Roulette in the future suits your thrill seeker personality, buy a UTEC.
Ooooo, this is getting juicy.
I have an XEDE in my car.
My car's fast.
If you put an XEDE in your car, it will also be fast.
UTECS are slow.
In all seriousness, they're both good solutions and they both have their ups and downs. I think if you put someone comfortable with both systems in front of a car with one, you would probably get the same output, powerwise.
I have an XEDE in my car.
My car's fast.
If you put an XEDE in your car, it will also be fast.
UTECS are slow.
In all seriousness, they're both good solutions and they both have their ups and downs. I think if you put someone comfortable with both systems in front of a car with one, you would probably get the same output, powerwise.
Of course your going to disagree, thats the whole point, I can only hope that people can read both opinions and make their own decision..
However many of those safety features are features of the ECU, not the Xede..
I do agree a text interface is not the best way to do things, however it is the most universal. And there's already a few good tools out there where you can edit and load maps that makes it quite a bit less cumbersome.. However I can keep a little PDA with a terminal emulator in the car and make changes whenever necessary, I can also use it to collect log data and load/save maps.
Like I said, there's nothing that will ever convince me otherwise. I also think that your past bad experience is affecting your ability to see a really good product, but I wholeheartedly understand your points and why you feel that way.
Like I said, at least now there's two comprehensive posts from both sides of the fence, with opinions of how each works, and enough information for someone to make an educated decision.
But your still wrong..
Ok, just busting your chops a little..
I don't have much else to say about it simply because I've already stated my opinion.. I know what works, and what doesn't.
Ultimately like I always say, tuning is more about the tuner, not the tools..
This thread has alot of good info, I just don't want it to degrade into a sword comparison..
However many of those safety features are features of the ECU, not the Xede..
I do agree a text interface is not the best way to do things, however it is the most universal. And there's already a few good tools out there where you can edit and load maps that makes it quite a bit less cumbersome.. However I can keep a little PDA with a terminal emulator in the car and make changes whenever necessary, I can also use it to collect log data and load/save maps.
Like I said, there's nothing that will ever convince me otherwise. I also think that your past bad experience is affecting your ability to see a really good product, but I wholeheartedly understand your points and why you feel that way.
Like I said, at least now there's two comprehensive posts from both sides of the fence, with opinions of how each works, and enough information for someone to make an educated decision.
But your still wrong..
Ok, just busting your chops a little.. I don't have much else to say about it simply because I've already stated my opinion.. I know what works, and what doesn't.
Ultimately like I always say, tuning is more about the tuner, not the tools..
This thread has alot of good info, I just don't want it to degrade into a sword comparison..
Of course I'm going to disagree and agree at the same time! waaahaahahahaha!
Just kidding.
Question: Does anybody know who actually 'designed' the UTEC? The XEDE was designed from ChipTorque in think in AU. From some articles I've read, they are a bunch of car-nut electrical engineering folks that have been doing this for years?
What's the design heiritage for the UTEC? Realize that you're speaking to an EE, so don't be afraid to tell me about the circuits, "as they stand."
jcnel.
Just kidding.
Question: Does anybody know who actually 'designed' the UTEC? The XEDE was designed from ChipTorque in think in AU. From some articles I've read, they are a bunch of car-nut electrical engineering folks that have been doing this for years?
What's the design heiritage for the UTEC? Realize that you're speaking to an EE, so don't be afraid to tell me about the circuits, "as they stand."
jcnel.