TT or DynoFlash
Originally Posted by Kee1pride
I thought I had remembered reading somewhere that Al would pay you back for getting a rental car while your car was down, if it was getting a mail in flash, by him.
I could be wrong though
I could be wrong though
Originally Posted by bacalhau16
hey Al, where did u go? help chime in on this closed loop matter, because i understand that a car cant be tuned in closed loop, so obviously u cant tune at part throttle. this is why u tune just for WOT in open loop.
in honda and acura using hondata, or uberdata for that matter, u can leave the car in open loop all the time allowing u to tune part throttle. i was always under the impression that both of u used something similar to this to tune a car. any help would be appreciated!
in honda and acura using hondata, or uberdata for that matter, u can leave the car in open loop all the time allowing u to tune part throttle. i was always under the impression that both of u used something similar to this to tune a car. any help would be appreciated!
The definition of what is closed loop is adjustable - hence you can expand or contract closed loop zones
In the areas that are closed loop - any fueling changes are moot as the ecu will quickly adjust the short term trims based upon front 02 sesnor feed back and long term trims to reach a constant 14.6 / 1 a/f. The only expection is where your correction exceeds the ecu's authority range for corrections and the ecu does not have enough range of adjustment to reach the 14.6 / 1 target .
Of course ignition mapping is fully adjustable in all areas closed or open loop and ignition mapping can make huge improvemnts in driveability
Finally, recently I have found what i think is a function that can alter the 14.6 figure and change that target. I am still testing it when I have spare time. More on that later.
Here is some info which explains fuel trims
FUEL TRIMS
Fuel trim refers to adjustments being made dynamically to the base fuel table to get the proper ratio of fuel to air. Short term fuel trim refers to adjustments being made in response to temporary conditions. Long term fuel trim is used to compensate for issues that seem to be present over a much longer period. Fuel trims are expressed in percentages; positive values indicate lean (add fuel) and negative values indicate rich (subtract fuel). Fuel trim banks refer to the cylinder banks in a V style engine. Cylinder #1 is always in bank 1. Fuel trim is generally calculated by using a wide set of data values, including front O2 sensors, intake air temperature/pressure (or the more elegent air mass sensor), engine (coolant) temp, anti-knock sensors, engine load, throttle position (and change in throttle position), and even battery voltage can effect fuel trim. Long term fuel trim generally should not exceed +- 10%.
Fuel trim refers to adjustments being made dynamically to the base fuel table to get the proper ratio of fuel to air. Short term fuel trim refers to adjustments being made in response to temporary conditions. Long term fuel trim is used to compensate for issues that seem to be present over a much longer period. Fuel trims are expressed in percentages; positive values indicate lean (add fuel) and negative values indicate rich (subtract fuel). Fuel trim banks refer to the cylinder banks in a V style engine. Cylinder #1 is always in bank 1. Fuel trim is generally calculated by using a wide set of data values, including front O2 sensors, intake air temperature/pressure (or the more elegent air mass sensor), engine (coolant) temp, anti-knock sensors, engine load, throttle position (and change in throttle position), and even battery voltage can effect fuel trim. Long term fuel trim generally should not exceed +- 10%.
Long Term Trim Long Term Trim is a learned value over time which changes gradually in response to conditions such as fuel oxygen content, engine wear, air leaks, variation in fuel pressure, altitude and so on. Long term trim is a component of what Toyota technical literature refers to as the "Basic Injection Duration". Basic Injection Duration data is stored in a nonvolatile RAM and is not erased even when the engine is shut down. This information is used during warm up and wide open throttle conditions.
Short Term Trim Short Term Trim is instantaneous correction value determined from the oxygen sensor readings. Under normal conditions it cycles rapidly around the 0 percent correction value and is only functional during closed loop operation. Short term trim is a component of the "Corrected Injection Duration". Corrected Injection Duration is used only during closed loop operation and not during open loop conditions. When Short Term trim exceeds plus or minus 10 percent for too long, the Long Term trim begins shifting, changing the Basic Injection Duration to bring the Short term trim back within the plus or minus 10 percent range. Short term trim can vary as much as plus or minus 20 percent, but the above correction mechanism works to keep it within plus or minus 10 percent.
Short Term Trim Short Term Trim is instantaneous correction value determined from the oxygen sensor readings. Under normal conditions it cycles rapidly around the 0 percent correction value and is only functional during closed loop operation. Short term trim is a component of the "Corrected Injection Duration". Corrected Injection Duration is used only during closed loop operation and not during open loop conditions. When Short Term trim exceeds plus or minus 10 percent for too long, the Long Term trim begins shifting, changing the Basic Injection Duration to bring the Short term trim back within the plus or minus 10 percent range. Short term trim can vary as much as plus or minus 20 percent, but the above correction mechanism works to keep it within plus or minus 10 percent.
Last edited by DynoFlash; Nov 22, 2005 at 11:59 PM.
Originally Posted by bacalhau16
so do u ever adjust part throttle in ur flashes or just WOT?
is ur program similar to that of hondata or is it way different?
is ur program similar to that of hondata or is it way different?
The correct ignition mapping is going to help a lot of low boost and off boost
performance and feel
A good tuner also checks the long term and short term trims to confirm that the fuel table adjustments leave the long term trims near zero correction - anthing within 3 % + or - is accptable with me
Also - idle is crictical
Last edited by DynoFlash; Nov 23, 2005 at 12:15 AM.
Originally Posted by bacalhau16
so do u ever adjust part throttle in ur flashes or just WOT?
is ur program similar to that of hondata or is it way different?
is ur program similar to that of hondata or is it way different?
I've had a dynoflash and two turbotrix flashes on my car before I got my utec. Both dynoflash and turbotrix are great products and you will see gains with either flash. For me, I felt like it was easier to ask Mark questions and get ahold of him so I stuck with turbotrix. Like someone said in an earlier post, Dynoflash is a one man operation and I'm sure Al is a busy man running his business and racing so that is probably a reason why some phone calls and pm's went unanswered when I had a dynoflash on my car.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Of course I adjust part throttle in every tune to get the driveability correct
The correct ignition mapping is going to help a lot of low boost and off boost
performance and feel
A good tuner also checks the long term and short term trims to confirm that the fuel table adjustments leave the long term trims near zero correction - anthing within 3 % + or - is accptable with me
Also - idle is crictical
The correct ignition mapping is going to help a lot of low boost and off boost
performance and feel
A good tuner also checks the long term and short term trims to confirm that the fuel table adjustments leave the long term trims near zero correction - anthing within 3 % + or - is accptable with me
Also - idle is crictical
Correct .. igntion timing can be adjusted in a closed loop conditions, hence the better idle with cams.. Factory settings as far as ignition are set high.. while still in closed loop the factory computer will seek 14.7 .. Tip in to open loop is very important for driveability .. and tuning is nessesary in these areas..
Mark
Turbotrix
so al and mark, do either of u feel that ur flash offers something different that the other vendor doesnt offer? we know that when a flash is done the rev limiter gets raised, boost cut is cut-off, and other such similiarities. but is there anything that differs between u two?
The last time Al/Dynoflash came to tucson, az to custom tune our cars, 2/8 felt that there was vast improvement, 1/8...so so...5/8 felt the same/ car is slower after the flash. The last guy took off, sacrificing his 100 deposit rather than having to waste 400 after majority has bad result after flash.
Moral of the story:some evos are made better/faster than others. There is only fuel/timing/boost, there is no miracle Al can do to make a normal car into an extraordinary fast car.
*flame suit on*
Moral of the story:some evos are made better/faster than others. There is only fuel/timing/boost, there is no miracle Al can do to make a normal car into an extraordinary fast car.
*flame suit on*
Originally Posted by AutobonEvo
i wasnt happy with my DYNOFLASH at all, thats why i got rid of it. I dont know about TT but iv heard only good things about them. I went with ECU PLUS best money i ever spent.
Man you know something's wrong with you when you have AL and Mark teaming against you (PD) .
Thanks for the Useful information on this thread as I find it valueable in what I am currently dealing with. I appreciate both AL's and Mark's opinions on this.
Also PD, when are we going to see that TT record fall? I thought so.
Thanks for the Useful information on this thread as I find it valueable in what I am currently dealing with. I appreciate both AL's and Mark's opinions on this.
Also PD, when are we going to see that TT record fall? I thought so.
Last edited by KILTERMAN; Nov 25, 2005 at 10:18 AM.
Last edited by timzcat; Nov 25, 2005 at 08:38 AM.
Originally Posted by edwin
There is only fuel/timing/boost, there is no miracle Al can do to make a normal car into an extraordinary fast car.
*flame suit on*
*flame suit on*
Edwin - remember - what I am doing is tuning a car which in most cases has already been modified to the customer's specifications.
The whole point is to adjust the ecu settings so that the car runs properly which means that the tuning adjustments are within normal parameters
I like to think that my style of tuning has a unique SMOOTHNESS to the power band which gives it a very OEM like feel - this is what I strive for. Without a doubt the quality of the tune and the saftey and reliability are much more important to myself than the peak power.
The OEM tuning is overly conservative so there is some room to work with it and unlock some free power on an otherwise stock car through tuning. I average about 35 whp and TQ gains on a totally stock car.
When you modify a Evo - in many cases the tune is thrown off - out of safe or functional limits and the tuning involves restoring normal operating parameters
I promise at least a 20 whp improvement through tuning also - which in many cases is on the low side. In most cases a 25 - 25 whp and TQ improvment is the average - just from the tuning. Most of my customers run normal pump gas and drive the car as a daily driver. This is a different situation than my 746 whp evo which runs on 120 ocatne race fuel.
Of course - there have been many situations where the combination of tuning and parts have lead to huge gains in power as documented by my numerous "case studies" which I have posted on these forums.
Of course it has been demonstrated many times - hundreds of times that my reflash tuning yields significant improvements in power over stock tuning. Power is very important and of course it is the objective of many reflash customers.
I have shown hundreds of times near record results on the dyno with my reflash and my customers have produced amazing results on the drag strip, road course and auto cross as well. I have more customers into the 11's than any other reflash tuning shop.
However - power improvements are ONLY PART of the tuning process
Here are some other benefits :
- Improved Driveability
- Smoother
- Faster spool up
- better fuel economy
- Enhanced saftey and long term reliability (To date I have tuned over 2,000 evos without any reported incident of tuning related engine failure)
Finally on 91 octane fuel such as you guys have in AZ - in many cases you are not going to "feel" a giant power gain from proper tuning. Its not going to give you a feelling like you just added cams or a larger turbo.
BTW - a recent addition to my tuning services is a full data logging suite with a print out of a/f, knock, G forge, a/f ratio - etc etc etc which I provide to the customer at the end of the tune so they can see exactly what has been changed and the power gains can be accurately quantified
Last edited by DynoFlash; Nov 25, 2005 at 01:01 PM.
Originally Posted by bacalhau16
so al and mark, do either of u feel that ur flash offers something different that the other vendor doesnt offer? we know that when a flash is done the rev limiter gets raised, boost cut is cut-off, and other such similiarities. but is there anything that differs between u two?
I do not want to speak negatively about any other tuning product
However - I feel there are some special features of my product which I can discuss
- HUGE library of base flashes to suit virtually any possible combination of bolt on modifications of evo parts
- Unparalleled record of saftey and engine durability on customers cars I have tuned over the past 2 1/2 years. Some customers have reached 100,000 miles with no reported tuning related engine failures out of 2,000 evos tuned.
- "V3" Boost controlling flash feature - holds steady 20 psi of boost on stock ecu
- Resale program
- Rental car reimbursement program
- 10 channel data logging system and print out of vital engine parameters
- FREE update tunes through the mail for life of car for all custom tuned flash customers
- Ecutek authorized dealer
Baseline = Dynoflash. Hmm...........all i can tell you is you are 100% WRONG! I had the same mods, running the same shell 91 when you tuned me in May 2005. Btw i'm one of the 5 that had your dynoflash and got re-reflashed, all were very impressed with their "re-reflash".
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Finally on 91 octane fuel such as you guys have in AZ - in many cases you are not going to "feel" a giant power gain from proper tuning. Its not going to give you a feelling like you just added cams or a larger turbo.


