Unfortunately, "into the 9's" does not cut it. 9.7 is stoichiometric for E-85, so you'll sit there closed loop. But theoretical best power is down around 8.2, and practical AFR with boost is probably closer to high sevens.

A poster above indicated that Innovate already goes down into that range, so not to worry. I pointed out that the are truly lambda meters. Since you can set the fuel type (AFR multiplier) in the Innovate widebands, you can do AFR tuning with E85 to much lower numbers still.

So, if the user really wants to do E-85 tuning in AFR, the real question is: What is the lambda range of the instrument? And can you set the fuel type (AFR multiplier)?

I'm also a bit confused, are you indicating that there is 9 hours of logging built into the Zeitronix gauge? My understanding is that logging is limited to a PC. In which case I can't help but ask, why only 9 hours? It seems that space should not be a problem.

For example, with 8 AFR channels (per cyl), 8 EGT, 8 CHT, and a handful of other channels (boost, TPS, etc.), I get over 30 hours on a bare bones 128M SD card when in car logging without a PC.

-jjf

 

I have personally used AEM uegos and they are perfect and allow the flexibility to data log on a standalone application ( laptop, evoscan, etc ). If anyone is interested in an AEM UEGO, shoot me a PM

 

I have the innovate wideband, its readings are all off. The dyno A/F shows 11 and the gauge shows 9.
Maybe the sensor went bad, but i only had it installed for a couple of months.

 

Which dyno A/F? Dynojet? Mustang? If you have a bad sensor, then the Innovate controller will give you an error signal.

 

i have the lc-1 with the xd-16 kit... its expandable to do everything the zietronix does...

but the great thing is if you have a friend that needs to borrow it, you dont need to take everyhing out... just the lc-1 and i dont think it needs a power or ground.. just plug and play.

its easy easy to install too.... took less than 30 min for everything

cheers!

 

This has been our experience on the local mustang dyno. Innovate refused to warranty at least four units when the dealer/dyno owner complained about the product.

 

Innovate fixes all broken units @ no charge. There is no warranty period. Every unit that is broken or dysfunctional is fixed for free. They do not charge for repairs. I am sure Joe from Innovate will chime in and tell you the same thing.

Second, the Mustang dyno uses an Innovate. It uses an LM-1.

That is why what you are saying does not add up.

 

That is patently false. We have never refused a single warrantee claim on a wideband controller - ever.

MR 600: It is actually quite hard to make a UEGO lambda meter read artifically rich. So if you have a properly calibrated unit, I would be prone to look for an abnormal combustion event.

Let's take a simple case, the car is too rich and you are either getting fouling or operating the plugs out of their optimal temperature range. This results in occassional miss fires. You see this a lot in idling high performers.

Now, picture that puff of unburnt mixture going out of the cyl, past the sensor and out the exhaust. There is O2, but no hydrocarbons (no combustion occured). Technically, lambda for that puff is infinity. Since AFR for display is lambda * 14.7, this puff is reported as a very thin spike by LM-1s and LC-1s. This is because we use our own patented measurement principle that is very fast.

Most wideband controllers use a measurement principle that I typically call 'current based'. It is very akin to a feedback control loop for a motor. However, unlike a motor system, the feedback cannot really be used for measurements because of the way the sensor works. The system is always driving the sensor to the same point. So measurement comes from the output of the PID style control loop. This means that there is a delay in reporting change, and change is dampened over time (typically 5 * tao in a PID loop). So, instead of a spike, a miss fire, and the resulting puff of infinite lambda gas, is reported as a long hump of artificially lean readings. The length of the hump depends on the design of the controller, but .5 to 1.5 seconds is typical. So you can probably imagine what happens if miss fires are repeatedly occuring:

___|_||__|___ Becomes: ----------- a trace shifted significantly lean.

Whenever someone reports 'way too rich' on one of our widebands, and the wideband is calibrated, I always look for miss fires and gas pressure problems (gas pressure is another factor than can cause a current based meters to be artificially lean).

When I hear reports about 'way too lean', the problem is typically either air leaks around the bung or in the exhaust, hairline cracks in the sensor itself, or in some cases, detonation. Again, it is a matter of instrument sample rate and response speed. Many widebands are too slow to really be influenced by the pressure waves in detonation. But our widebands often catch them and our influenced, much as a good EGT probe will show a slight drop when detonation occurs.

When I hear about variations in the .5 to 1.0 AFR range, I look at the sensor and calibration on the other unit. When looking at manufacturer claims, it is important to remember the actual sensor spec. For example, look at this page from Bosch. Many wideband makers point out that we make users calibrate but they don't. They argue that the 'right' way is to use the calibration resistor in the sensor. But let's read the spec. According to Bosch, under ideal conditions (standard pressure, room temp calibrated gas), a brand new sensor is accurate at .8 lambda (a spot in the middle of a typically WOT AFR range) to +/- .01 lambda. In other words, a brand new sensor is a +/- .15 AFR component under ideal conditions using Bosch's standard calibration scheme.

And, according to Bosch (again see the spec) accuracy quickly drops to .02 lambda and then more slowly decause to .04 lambda (+/- .6 AFR). And this is under IDEAL conditions. We seldom tune in standard pressure or with room temperature exhaust. We use hot, oscillating pressure exhaust, which makes maintaining perfect sensor temp much more difficult. So, the reason we allow both heater and free air calibration in the field is actually 3 fold. The calibration resistor is not accurate enough for our target precisision (.1 AFR over the normal instrument range), the sensor drifts over time, and deviations from partial pressure can create significant discrepencies when you tune at altitude.

If it sounds like I have a lot of confidence in our readings, I do. We are well represented in pro racing and have investigated many of these types of 'errors'. Also, if you search pro racing literature you will see a growing number of articles from folks like Pedigo Performance, Duttweiller Performance, and so on were they report the same thing, the 'incorrect' reading on an Innovate wideband turned out to be correct.

On the flip side, our units do need to be properly calibrated, and the high speed measurements do make the instrument more sensitive to things like proper grounding.

But, regardless of the above, whenever there is the slightest question about one of our controllers, we'll repair or replace it.

-jjf

 

I calibrated it many times, still does not work right. a friend of mine has the same problem. i spoke to another shop who also told me they have the same problems with the innovate.

 

First, we have to define the problem. The problem that you have listed to me is that your meter does not agress with a meter on a Dyno.

There seems to be an assumption that the dyno is right, and the LC-1/LM-1 is incorrect. However, there is no particular reason to believe that this is so.

If you were to call our free customer support, you would most likely talk to Felipe. If you insist you are getting bad readings, he'll have you send the unit back. The first thing that will happen with your unit is that the sensor will be disconnected and power will be cycled. Then the sensor will be re-attached and power will be reapplied. The unit will then assume that the sensor is 'new' (or at least different) and will perform a heater calibration and free air calibration. If the unit completes without an error, several different 1% calibrated gasses will be fed into the sensor.

We have sold many tens of thousands of wideband controllers and have had about 30 units returned for 'inaccuracy'. I do not believe that a single unit that passed calibration has ever been outside of .007 lambda with the gasses (.1 AFR, the precision we rate to).

But, again, we take every customer problem very seriously. However, let's take a closer look at your problem. We offer a .1 AFR instrument (.007 lambda to be precise). Typically, accuracy is better than that (.002 - .003), but .007 is what we promise.

Although some vendors will scream, typical UEGO sensor based accuracy is about .3 to .5 AFR. But it makes sense when you think about it. The sensor is typically only .15 AFR accurate (see the spec) brand new. And typically the sensor is not brand new, is not operated in optimum conditions, and is not at standard pressure (ex. ISO conditions at sea level). So if the units are within 1.0, combined instrument error is normally the case.

When the units are apart by more, I look at the probabilities. There are lots of ways to fool a current based meter into reading too lean (I gave just one example, miss fires, because the underlying principle of delay and artificial lean can actually be tested with other widebands in your own car). It is very hard to fool our meters into reading too rich. So, like I said, when this sort of thing is reported, I look for things like abnormal combustion, gas pressure errors, even overheated sensors with hairline cracks (on the 'lean' setup).

You are welcome to PM me. I'd be happy to see if we have a rep near you and see if we couldn't, literally, put it to the test. Calibrated gasses are easier to get in CA because they are used in smog test calibration, but in the US something can almost always be arranged.

You can even go to our support forum and say "Klaus" (the patent holder) "prove to me that your meter is right and the other is wrong". It may take him a day or so to get back to you, but he will.

And, of course, you are welcome to call our free customer service. If you are sure that your instrument is wrong, they will take care of you. In fact, if you are not happy with what they are saying to you - ask whoever you talk with to get Joe (any day but Fridays) and I'll get conferenced in and listen in.

-jjf

Edit: FWIW, one of the only ways to get us to read artificially rich is to do a "Free Air" calibration in lingering exhaust gas.