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Question on rope method for springs/retainers

 
Old Feb 23, 2018, 11:32 AM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by 2006EvoIXer View Post
Thank you Pal. You wrote it better.
Plan on resetting timing. It's too much work to avoid and may still end up doing it anyway. GL

If this was your 2nd or 3rd time doing this, you can probably do this without resetting. It is a bit tricky as you need to keep timing belt tight and be able to compress rope a little.

Marios can do it but he's experienced. If you try it, it likely won't go as planned. World isn't perfect, attempt at your own risk. GL







Because he is a novice at this, that's why I'm insisting on not doing the timing belt. It is an easy process doing the timing, but easy is relative and subjective. If he does not manage to do it properly, either by not aligning the marks, or not putting the proper tension to the belt due to improper work on the tensioner pulley, then he will end up with a seriously damaged engine, and the springs and or cams will not matter any more.






My advice is to do the rope method as I said, if he cannot do this, which is easier than doing the timing, then he needs to take his car to a shop, and he can watch them do it if he wants so that he learns first hand.












Marios
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Old Feb 23, 2018, 11:34 AM
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Also, when you open the MIVEC cam gear with allen wrench, put plenty of paper towels under it to soak up oil that will leak out. I removed my new timing belt to wash oil off with soap and water.
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Old Feb 23, 2018, 11:39 AM
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What will you tell him if rope turns the piston enough where timing belt skips a tooth or 2? Will you reset his timing belt for him? Will you fix his bent valves? I'd rather forewarn him of worst case than to tell him it will go perfectly.

So if he does rope and mess up timing, will you pay for his tow to a shop?

Expect to reset timing. So if OP doesn't have time to deal with that, wait until he has time. Otherwise, he may be out of a car for a while.

Originally Posted by Evo8cy View Post
Because he is a novice at this, that's why I'm insisting on not doing the timing belt. It is an easy process doing the timing, but easy is relative and subjective. If he does not manage to do it properly, either by not aligning the marks, or not putting the proper tension to the belt due to improper work on the tensioner pulley, then he will end up with a seriously damaged engine, and the springs and or cams will not matter any more.






My advice is to do the rope method as I said, if he cannot do this, which is easier than doing the timing, then he needs to take his car to a shop, and he can watch them do it if he wants so that he learns first hand.












Marios
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Old Feb 23, 2018, 11:44 AM
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Anyway, do as you like. You heard all the advices so you're better prepared. GL
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Old Feb 23, 2018, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 2006EvoIXer View Post
What will you tell him if rope turns the piston enough where timing belt skips a tooth or 2? Will you reset his timing belt for him? Will you fix his bent valves? I'd rather forewarn him of worst case than to tell him it will go perfectly.

So if he does rope and mess up timing, will you pay for his tow to a shop?

Expect to reset timing. So if OP doesn't have time to deal with that, wait until he has time. Otherwise, he may be out of a car for a while.


The rope or cable is not going to turn anything, the cam gears are zip tied to the belt, and between them, the belt still has certain tension on it due to the hydraulic tensioner, and also the crank does not rotate as easily as you think, the engine cannot turn. The rope has no impact whatsoever on timing.



He can only mess up timing by trying to re-do it.




Now I'm absolutely sure you have no clue what your talking about and you are trying to be a smart ***.




You are posting inconsistencies and things that have no actual pragmatical basis, in an effort to cover up your own lack of knowledge and experience, but through this you confuse people not in the know, stop doing it.









Marios

Last edited by MinusPrevious; Feb 23, 2018 at 12:27 PM. Reason: Disrespectful
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Old Feb 23, 2018, 12:40 PM
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How does hydraulic tensioner keep tension? You need to use tool to push that in so the belt can loosen up to remove cam gears.
GL OP, I'm done here.

Originally Posted by Evo8cy View Post
The rope or cable is not going to turn anything, the cam gears are zip tied to the belt, and between them, the belt still has certain tension on it due to the hydraulic tensioner, and also the crank does not rotate as easily as you think, the engine cannot turn. The rope has no impact whatsoever on timing.



He can only mess up timing by trying to re-do it.




Now I'm absolutely sure you have no clue what your talking about and you are trying to be a smart ***.




You are posting inconsistencies and things that have no actual pragmatical basis, in an effort to cover up your own lack of knowledge and experience, but through this you confuse people not in the know, stop doing it.









Marios
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Old Feb 24, 2018, 11:34 AM
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Thanks for all the replies everyone, sorry it turned into a bit of a war. Haha.

I’m not a novice at most engine work but this is the first time I’ve done a spring an retainer job so I was a bit ignorant on what all is involved. I work on robots and industrial machinery so my attention to detail is pretty on point.

It’s just nice to get second opinions and advice rather than trying to figure it out myself if I don’t have to.

Thanks all, I’ll be tackling this at some point with that euro tool!
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Old Feb 25, 2018, 09:38 AM
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Been down this road as well.... I tried compressed air and failed at it. Luckily I didn't drop any valves, but had I gone forward I believe I would have.

Long story short timing the motor is super easy, provided you have the tools to do so.

Tensioner tool and timing gear tool are essential.
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Old Feb 25, 2018, 11:16 AM
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I'm not in here to be part of the pissing contest .... but I will advise that it's easier to just re-do the timing.
Setting timing is a LOT easier than trying to keep from having to redo the timing. I've done the "zip tie the belt to the cam gears, try to keep things from moving, try to keep the belt from jumping, etc" while doing a cam swap. After more frustration than it was worth, I just pulled everything apart and did the timing LOL.
However... I do have proper timing tools that make it cake. Without those, maybe I'd have a different opinion.
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Old Feb 27, 2018, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by kaj View Post
Setting timing is a LOT easier than trying to keep from having to redo the timing.



Agreed 100% on this point.
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Old Feb 27, 2018, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by 2006EvoIXer View Post
How does hydraulic tensioner keep tension? You need to use tool to push that in so the belt can loosen up to remove cam gears.
GL OP, I'm done here.



Tension needs to stay on the belt. Gears come off very easily without the need to remove tension.
That's not the way to loosen the belt, nothing gets to be pushed in, it is done through the tensioner pulley.

Start doing your homework as you have A LOT to learn.









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Old Feb 27, 2018, 08:35 PM
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I've done each and every method there is on valve springs, timing or no timing, including the one that one does not need to remove the camshafts to do the springs, apart of a self made lever tool that I made for the last method, I did all the rest without any specialized tools.


To me everything is easy, but easy is very subjective.







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Old Feb 28, 2018, 08:09 AM
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OP: try your best to avoid resetting timing belt and report back afterwards. It isn't that hard to do. It just takes time to think everything through. I was careful, but once oil spilled on my new timing belt, I decided to take it off to clean (and cleaned everything else there). I plan on running each gear pass 8000rpm at the track, so I'm not going to cut corners.

Make sure your timing marks line up at the end. Take pictures before and after to compare. We have interference engines, so it is critical that timing is right.

I strongly suggest you reset your lifters by bleeding them. While they are out, make sure everyone holds oil and cannot be compressed without pushing on check valve (with paperclip). If it does compress, replace it because check valve is leaking. GL
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Old Mar 2, 2018, 12:29 PM
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I've been planning on swapping the camshaft and valve springs when I do this upcoming timing belt job and have been doing a lot of research for tips on the forums.

This is the most recommended valve spring tool if you haven't seen it: http://www.euroexportinc.com/mitsubi...ing-compressor

Also, I've seen a few comments from people that just bring the piston to TDC and don't use the rope or compressed air method. The comments indicate that the piston is close enough to the valve at TDC that the valve can only move a mm or so. This is one of the threads discussing this: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...e-springs.html

Hope this helps!
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Old Mar 2, 2018, 03:29 PM
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Forget the compressed air method. It introduces moisture into cylinders. Also, you really need to lock down crankshaft because the air will rotate your engine. At TDC, valve will drop more than 1 mm. I didn't measure, but I would guess 5-8 mm. You won't need rope for cylinders 1 & 4 if you will use rope method. It is tricky and you need to always pay attention to crank to make sure it doesn't move on you.
​Use a bar with holes to screw into crank sprocket and something else to keep it still while you work.

Originally Posted by Siege View Post
I've been planning on swapping the camshaft and valve springs when I do this upcoming timing belt job and have been doing a lot of research for tips on the forums.

This is the most recommended valve spring tool if you haven't seen it: http://www.euroexportinc.com/mitsubi...ing-compressor

Also, I've seen a few comments from people that just bring the piston to TDC and don't use the rope or compressed air method. The comments indicate that the piston is close enough to the valve at TDC that the valve can only move a mm or so. This is one of the threads discussing this: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...e-springs.html

Hope this helps!
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