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really bad knock all of a sudden

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Old Jan 30, 2010 | 03:57 PM
  #16  
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Uh oh....


I swear every time I remember Boosted's thread or even Dino on the other board, I keep contemplating trading my car in for IV. This might be the toll if tephra doesn't figure it out.
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Old Jan 30, 2010 | 05:01 PM
  #17  
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same station - same pump - no tanker filling it at the time...

here are some pics of the plugs:


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Old Jan 30, 2010 | 05:34 PM
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ok i did a compression test - cold engine thou (does it matter??)

also my compression tester is a bit crap, the thread wasn't right so I just used the rubber bung and held the tool down...

from left to right (when looking at the motor standing at the front of the car):

135 130 115 140

hrmmm

Last edited by tephra; Jan 30, 2010 at 05:45 PM.
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Old Jan 30, 2010 | 05:35 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by tephra
same station - same pump - no tanker filling it at the time...

here are some pics of the plugs:


Dont see any gapping issues with the pics teph. Your plugs look good to be honest, straps are intact and not corroded. Hope its something as simple as your Fuel Pump Relay. Thats why I swapped mine immediately after hearing about others having issues running far too lean up top.

Keep us upadated, and my fingers are double crossed for you.

Noticed you did a compression test, looks like cylinder 2 might be a bit low (115) but not out of acceptable range? Anyone can chime in and correct me if im wrong. Really hoping its not your motor teph. That would just suck...

Last edited by HR2L; Jan 30, 2010 at 05:39 PM.
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Old Jan 30, 2010 | 05:45 PM
  #20  
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yes it would suck!

hoping my tool is dodgy, or I need todo it on a hot motor...

Last edited by tephra; Jan 30, 2010 at 06:19 PM.
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Old Jan 30, 2010 | 06:11 PM
  #21  
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Doing on a hot motor with a tool that works fine is a good start.
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Old Jan 30, 2010 | 06:19 PM
  #22  
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lol

ok i redid #3 (115) on a hot motor and it came out with 125psi...

so its still 20psi down on the other cylinders...
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Old Jan 30, 2010 | 06:22 PM
  #23  
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Hot motor just driven to full temp is pretty much required to get accurate results on our cars. I'm pretty sure cylinder 1 is on the passenger side by the timing chain and 4 is on the drivers side but I could be wrong.

Check out this Compression test how to:

http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/s...=3655&CATID=21

Compression Testing

By Ralph Kalal

A compression test is one of the best ways to check the internal mechanical functioning of an engine. Since an engine’s efficiency is a function of how well it pumps air, good compression in all cylinders is essential. A compression test can not only determine if there is a problem, but help isolate it. Considering the difficulty of removing spark plugs in some modern cars, if you’re going to the trouble of replacing the plugs, you might want to run a compression test, too.

Professional mechanics typically use an electronic engine analyzer to perform this test by measuring cranking speed to estimate compression. But the old-fashioned way to do it—with a compression gauge—is still quite satisfactory. An engine analyzer isn’t a better way, just a quicker one.

A good compression gauge can be had for $40 or less. One end screws into the spark plug hole in the cylinder head. The other end is the gauge. An assistant cranks the engine as you watch the gauge. You repeat this for each cylinder.

To perform the test, first make sure the battery is fully charged. If it’s not, the cranking speed will be reduced, which will lower the compression readings. Then disable the ignition so that no current can flow to the spark plug wires. In a modern car, this is done by disconnecting the electrical connectors to the coil pack. In an older car with only a single coil, disconnect it.

Remove all of the spark plugs as described in the text (except that you’re removing them all, not onebyone). If there is any risk that it could be unclear which plug wire goes to which cylinder, use masking tape to label them with their cylinder numbers.

Open the throttle fully and hold it open by using a length of wire or bent coat hanger to hold it open. If the throttle isn’t open, the engine will be slowed on the intake stroke.

If the car has fuel injection, pull the fuse that controls the fuel pump, so that fuel is not being injected into the cylinders. This avoids spraying fuel into the cylinders, which will dilute the oil on the cylinder walls, and diminish compression.

Install the compression gauge finger-tight and have an assistant crank the engine while you observe the gauge reading. Crank until the gauge stops increasing its reading,but observe the reading at each compression stroke for the cylinder, too. Repeat the process for each cylinder.

The factory shop manual will give you the compression specifications for the engine. Compression below those specifications indicates engine wear. That a high mileage engine should have lower compression than a new one, however, isn’t a surprise and it isn’t necessarily cause for concern. A variation of 10 or 15 psi between cylinders is normal. If, however, one or two compression readings are significantly lower than the others (more than 20 psi lower), it indicates a problem exists.

If one cylinder reads significantly below others, add about a tablespoon of SAE 30 motor oil to the cylinder and repeat the test, which is called a “wet” compression test, to see if compression improves. Here’s what it means:

One cylinder low usually indicates either bad piston rings or leaking valves. If adding oil caused compression to increase, the piston rings are at fault. If adding oil did not increase compression, the valves are leaking.

One cylinder low can also indicate that the head gasket is ruptured—a “blown head gasket”—affecting only that cylinder. If the vehicle has been losing coolant, that diagnosis is likely confirmed, but a cooling system pressure test will provide a sure answer.

Two adjacent cylinders with a low reading suggests a blown head gasket between those two cylinders.

Because head gaskets also seal off coolant passages, you should check for any indication that coolant is getting into the engine oil whenever you suspect a head gasket may have blown. If you find it, it confirms the diagnosis. Coolant mixed with oil takes on a brown, muddy color.

A cylinder that ultimately achieves a reading within tolerances of the other cylinders, but which takes an unusually large number of engine strokes to do so, is likely to have worn piston rings. A healthy cylinder should reach its maximum compression reading in the first two compression strokes. You can verify this by performing a wet compression test on the cylinder.

Compression that is above specifications is generally considered an indication of carbon build-up in the cylinder, cylinder heads, and piston top. It can also indicate that fluid, either coolant or oil, is leaking into the cylinder. In that case, however, you should see smoke from the exhaust when the engine is running.
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Old Jan 30, 2010 | 06:24 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by tephra
lol

ok i redid #3 (115) on a hot motor and it came out with 125psi...

so its still 20psi down on the other cylinders...
Try adding some oil as outlined in the guide above, that should tell us where the issue may be.
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Old Jan 30, 2010 | 06:28 PM
  #25  
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yep i will...

actually the car is coming up for a service, so I will get the mech's todo it as well... that should rule out user error hehe

heres a question thou, IF the rings were worn OR the valves burn would that cause more knock to occur?

any more comments on the plugs?
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Old Jan 30, 2010 | 06:39 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by tephra
yep i will...

actually the car is coming up for a service, so I will get the mech's todo it as well... that should rule out user error hehe

heres a question thou, IF the rings were worn OR the valves burn would that cause more knock to occur?

any more comments on the plugs?
Plugs look fine to me.

On the effected cars, the rings aren't worn, they are breaking outright. TTP speculated that the gaps are a bit narrow for emissions and close under higher boost (~26psi) which can cause closing, then contact, and break or chip parts of the piston tops off. Whether that is it or not, the idea behind it is pretty sound, as a lot of engines have already failed this way. Most often, this failure occurs on #4, though.

Your best bet is to borescope one of the good cylinders before pouring any oil in, then look at the one with lower compression. If you do not have a borescope, a tiny flashlight can allow you to see the center of the piston depending where it is in position when the engine was shut off. My Evo VIII had a cracked piston, and it was obvious with a flashlight. But it was also making the plug wet, and there is nothing like that on your car at all.

All the cars I've seen with the ring issue had dry plugs too, and we could see nothing with a borescope, just huge knock- nearly identical symptoms you're seeing out of the blue.
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Old Jan 30, 2010 | 06:43 PM
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Tephra, out of curiosity, what kind of timing were you running at high RPM 6000 to the limiter when the car was not knocking in the logged load cells?
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Old Jan 30, 2010 | 06:44 PM
  #28  
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yeah i shined a light down there and i couldn't see anything noteworthy...

timing:
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Old Jan 30, 2010 | 06:50 PM
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It could also be the valves. The valvesprings seem to be pretty week in this car. I know dave B. posted that he bent his valves and so did a few others. Maybe the audible noise and high knocksum was the contact onto the pistons? This could explain the low compression test results.
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Old Jan 30, 2010 | 07:18 PM
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Hehe...

Also Tehpra has this in his signature:

yes - I have given up emptying my Inbox
So it might not make it anyways.

Originally Posted by tephra

heres a question thou, IF the rings were worn OR the valves burn would that cause more knock to occur?

any more comments on the plugs?
Plugs seem fine, somewhat dark if anything honestly.

When you have large variances in compression it can make it harder to dial the tune in although less compression should mean less stress in that cylinder now. The knock could be a result of hotspots forming in the combustion chamber, usually on sharp edges of broken off parts cause the most problems. Hopefully that's not the case but autoignition is somewhat common on turbocharged cars so any sharp edges or carbon buildup can be problematic.

Last edited by Hiboost; Jan 30, 2010 at 07:31 PM.
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