View Poll Results: Which 3 Port bc???
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Which 3 Port Boost Solenoid
Oct 12, 2010, 08:08 AM
#20
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i have the grimmspeed and can't wait to install it...just waiting for my cobb AP.. no pills and hopefully 24 psi...so easy to install just PNP and tune, then just boost!!!!!!
Oct 15, 2010, 10:54 PM
#25
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I found that....
Why did we do this testing? To ensure we are still offering the best valve on the market, we wanted to test our boost control solenoid against other popular options that are available.
Where did we do the testing? We met with solenoid engineers using specialized solenoid testing equipment at an offsite location. The data was achieved using MAC's TLD/PLD equipment. This is not 3rd party testing but we made every attempt to keep this an equal playing field.
How was the test conducted? The goal of the test was to keep things equivalent for all valves tested. The same length of 5/32" diameter hose, the same fittings, the same % duty cycle, and the same test pressures were used.
What were the results? Our test results focused on actual reaction times of the valves for opening and closing. This was taken in the form of an energize and de-energize response time measurement. Basically we sent the valves a signal to open or close (the same type of signal your factory or aftermarket ECU would deliver to the solenoid), and then recorded the length of time for the air signal to react (which equates to the speed of your boost target being hit). Below is a summary of these results.
GrimmSpeed:
8ms to De-energize
12.5ms to Energize
Valve (X):
13ms to De-Energize
16ms to Energize
Valve (Y):
17.5ms to De-energize
17.5ms to Energize
As you can see, Valve Y took the opposite input signal to get the same air pressure curve. This is because it is a normally closed valve. The measurements are in milliseconds and the difference between the GrimmSpeed valve and the slowest response valve (Valve Y) is 9ms. Now to most 9ms seems unperceivable, and although admittedly a very short time, it is noticeable. For reference, it happens to be about the same time as the required upshift of a DSG twin clutch transmission or closely equivalent to a standard camera's shutter speed.
Noise and Vibration: Going into this we did not expect noise and vibration to be a potential difference, but were very quickly surprised. Valve Y when cycled created quite a bit of noise and vibration. When set on the table it managed to vibrate itself off of the table while the GrimmSpeed and Valve X vibrated only slightly and quietly in place.
YouTube- Boost Control Solenoid Comparison
A few other points...
Valve design: The MAC valve is the only balanced 3 way poppet valve on the market. Basically the moving pneumatic portion of the valve is balanced in weight. This is the reason there is significantly less vibration and noise with the MAC. It also allows for consistent shifting forces in all conditions. The proven MAC valve architecture has the fewest moving parts out of the different solenoid valve designs out there. This basic valve architecture has been life tested to ensure the longest life span out there.
Environmental concerns: The Mac valve, unlike the other tested valves, does not exhaust condensation and potential contaminants through the coil of the valve. This valve will not stick. Also, we were slightly alarmed that Valve Y's coil was not water proof. Underneath the unsealed aluminum dust cover of valve Y, the coil windings were simply wrapped in tape. By encapsulating the coil in molded plastic like the Mac valve, the coil is protected from vibration and moisture ensuring no premature failure.
Fail safe mode: Unlike Valve Y, in the unlikely chance of failure (like the valve losing it's electrical connection) the MAC valve will fail-safe causing the car to operate with wastegate boost pressure protecting your car from potentially fatal overboosting.
Hope this gives our customers some solid confidence that they purchased the best performing solenoid on the market!
Why did we do this testing? To ensure we are still offering the best valve on the market, we wanted to test our boost control solenoid against other popular options that are available.
Where did we do the testing? We met with solenoid engineers using specialized solenoid testing equipment at an offsite location. The data was achieved using MAC's TLD/PLD equipment. This is not 3rd party testing but we made every attempt to keep this an equal playing field.
How was the test conducted? The goal of the test was to keep things equivalent for all valves tested. The same length of 5/32" diameter hose, the same fittings, the same % duty cycle, and the same test pressures were used.
What were the results? Our test results focused on actual reaction times of the valves for opening and closing. This was taken in the form of an energize and de-energize response time measurement. Basically we sent the valves a signal to open or close (the same type of signal your factory or aftermarket ECU would deliver to the solenoid), and then recorded the length of time for the air signal to react (which equates to the speed of your boost target being hit). Below is a summary of these results.
GrimmSpeed:
8ms to De-energize
12.5ms to Energize
Valve (X):
13ms to De-Energize
16ms to Energize
Valve (Y):
17.5ms to De-energize
17.5ms to Energize
As you can see, Valve Y took the opposite input signal to get the same air pressure curve. This is because it is a normally closed valve. The measurements are in milliseconds and the difference between the GrimmSpeed valve and the slowest response valve (Valve Y) is 9ms. Now to most 9ms seems unperceivable, and although admittedly a very short time, it is noticeable. For reference, it happens to be about the same time as the required upshift of a DSG twin clutch transmission or closely equivalent to a standard camera's shutter speed.
Noise and Vibration: Going into this we did not expect noise and vibration to be a potential difference, but were very quickly surprised. Valve Y when cycled created quite a bit of noise and vibration. When set on the table it managed to vibrate itself off of the table while the GrimmSpeed and Valve X vibrated only slightly and quietly in place.
YouTube- Boost Control Solenoid Comparison
A few other points...
Valve design: The MAC valve is the only balanced 3 way poppet valve on the market. Basically the moving pneumatic portion of the valve is balanced in weight. This is the reason there is significantly less vibration and noise with the MAC. It also allows for consistent shifting forces in all conditions. The proven MAC valve architecture has the fewest moving parts out of the different solenoid valve designs out there. This basic valve architecture has been life tested to ensure the longest life span out there.
Environmental concerns: The Mac valve, unlike the other tested valves, does not exhaust condensation and potential contaminants through the coil of the valve. This valve will not stick. Also, we were slightly alarmed that Valve Y's coil was not water proof. Underneath the unsealed aluminum dust cover of valve Y, the coil windings were simply wrapped in tape. By encapsulating the coil in molded plastic like the Mac valve, the coil is protected from vibration and moisture ensuring no premature failure.
Fail safe mode: Unlike Valve Y, in the unlikely chance of failure (like the valve losing it's electrical connection) the MAC valve will fail-safe causing the car to operate with wastegate boost pressure protecting your car from potentially fatal overboosting.
Hope this gives our customers some solid confidence that they purchased the best performing solenoid on the market!
Jan 2, 2011, 03:02 AM
#29
The two best solenoids out there are the GM and Grimmspeed.
Performance: First thing that people need to understand is that all 3-port BCS'es have the same maximum boost holding capability. If anyone tries to tell you otherwise (e.g., 3-port solenoid "A" can hold more boost than 3-port solenoid "B"), they are full of ****. What makes one BCS better than the other is the ability to hold a target boost level. The GM and Grimmspeed are both very good at this. First, both have a short reaction time. A short reaction time is a contributing factor in turbo responsiveness (but its not the only factor) and helps with boost control. The Grimmspeed is a little faster than the GM. The other key aspect of performance is the pressure bleed characteristic. From my bench testing of several BCS'es, I've come to the conclusion that there is an optimum bleed response. A BCS that bleeds pressure from the WGA too slowly will give both a laggy turbo spool response and cause difficulty in tuning boost. However, a BCS that bleeds pressure really fast will also reduce the ability to fine tune boost. Again, both solenoids have a very similar bleed characteristic. IMHO, the GM has a slightly better bleed characteristic. So, the Grimmspeed has a slightly faster response time, while the GM has a slightly better bleed characteristic, and overall I consider the solenoids a tie in performance.
Reliability: The GM BCS has been in use on Evo's since around 2006. I am not aware of any failures. Grimmspeed looks to be well-made, and will likely be just as reliable.
Compatibility with the factory ECU: There is valid concern about matching the electrical resistance of the stock BCS. The GM BCS resistance is about 20% lower than the stock BCS while the Grimmspeed matches the stock BCS more closely. No one has the specs on what electrical current the BCS switching transistor in the ECU can handle, but a number of people (including myself) have run the GM BCS without a resistor and have had no issues.
Noise: A few people have mentioned noise as an issue. My recollection is that the GM and the Grimmspeed have very similar noise levels during operation.
Cost: The GM BCS with the PnP wiring adapter from spoolinup.com is around half the price of the Grimmspeed unit. Both are dirt cheap compared to many of the standard performance mods that people do.
Ultimately, both are great units. Run whichever of the two makes you feel good. I run the GM BCS (with no resistor).
Performance: First thing that people need to understand is that all 3-port BCS'es have the same maximum boost holding capability. If anyone tries to tell you otherwise (e.g., 3-port solenoid "A" can hold more boost than 3-port solenoid "B"), they are full of ****. What makes one BCS better than the other is the ability to hold a target boost level. The GM and Grimmspeed are both very good at this. First, both have a short reaction time. A short reaction time is a contributing factor in turbo responsiveness (but its not the only factor) and helps with boost control. The Grimmspeed is a little faster than the GM. The other key aspect of performance is the pressure bleed characteristic. From my bench testing of several BCS'es, I've come to the conclusion that there is an optimum bleed response. A BCS that bleeds pressure from the WGA too slowly will give both a laggy turbo spool response and cause difficulty in tuning boost. However, a BCS that bleeds pressure really fast will also reduce the ability to fine tune boost. Again, both solenoids have a very similar bleed characteristic. IMHO, the GM has a slightly better bleed characteristic. So, the Grimmspeed has a slightly faster response time, while the GM has a slightly better bleed characteristic, and overall I consider the solenoids a tie in performance.
Reliability: The GM BCS has been in use on Evo's since around 2006. I am not aware of any failures. Grimmspeed looks to be well-made, and will likely be just as reliable.
Compatibility with the factory ECU: There is valid concern about matching the electrical resistance of the stock BCS. The GM BCS resistance is about 20% lower than the stock BCS while the Grimmspeed matches the stock BCS more closely. No one has the specs on what electrical current the BCS switching transistor in the ECU can handle, but a number of people (including myself) have run the GM BCS without a resistor and have had no issues.
Noise: A few people have mentioned noise as an issue. My recollection is that the GM and the Grimmspeed have very similar noise levels during operation.
Cost: The GM BCS with the PnP wiring adapter from spoolinup.com is around half the price of the Grimmspeed unit. Both are dirt cheap compared to many of the standard performance mods that people do.
Ultimately, both are great units. Run whichever of the two makes you feel good. I run the GM BCS (with no resistor).
Last edited by mrfred; Jan 2, 2011 at 03:11 AM.
Jan 2, 2011, 05:20 AM
#30
The two best solenoids out there are the GM and Grimmspeed.
Performance: First thing that people need to understand is that all 3-port BCS'es have the same maximum boost holding capability. If anyone tries to tell you otherwise (e.g., 3-port solenoid "A" can hold more boost than 3-port solenoid "B"), they are full of ****. What makes one BCS better than the other is the ability to hold a target boost level. The GM and Grimmspeed are both very good at this. First, both have a short reaction time. A short reaction time is a contributing factor in turbo responsiveness (but its not the only factor) and helps with boost control. The Grimmspeed is a little faster than the GM. The other key aspect of performance is the pressure bleed characteristic. From my bench testing of several BCS'es, I've come to the conclusion that there is an optimum bleed response. A BCS that bleeds pressure from the WGA too slowly will give both a laggy turbo spool response and cause difficulty in tuning boost. However, a BCS that bleeds pressure really fast will also reduce the ability to fine tune boost. Again, both solenoids have a very similar bleed characteristic. IMHO, the GM has a slightly better bleed characteristic. So, the Grimmspeed has a slightly faster response time, while the GM has a slightly better bleed characteristic, and overall I consider the solenoids a tie in performance.
Reliability: The GM BCS has been in use on Evo's since around 2006. I am not aware of any failures. Grimmspeed looks to be well-made, and will likely be just as reliable.
Compatibility with the factory ECU: There is valid concern about matching the electrical resistance of the stock BCS. The GM BCS resistance is about 20% lower than the stock BCS while the Grimmspeed matches the stock BCS more closely. No one has the specs on what electrical current the BCS switching transistor in the ECU can handle, but a number of people (including myself) have run the GM BCS without a resistor and have had no issues.
Noise: A few people have mentioned noise as an issue. My recollection is that the GM and the Grimmspeed have very similar noise levels during operation.
Cost: The GM BCS with the PnP wiring adapter from spoolinup.com is around half the price of the Grimmspeed unit. Both are dirt cheap compared to many of the standard performance mods that people do.
Ultimately, both are great units. Run whichever of the two makes you feel good. I run the GM BCS (with no resistor).
Performance: First thing that people need to understand is that all 3-port BCS'es have the same maximum boost holding capability. If anyone tries to tell you otherwise (e.g., 3-port solenoid "A" can hold more boost than 3-port solenoid "B"), they are full of ****. What makes one BCS better than the other is the ability to hold a target boost level. The GM and Grimmspeed are both very good at this. First, both have a short reaction time. A short reaction time is a contributing factor in turbo responsiveness (but its not the only factor) and helps with boost control. The Grimmspeed is a little faster than the GM. The other key aspect of performance is the pressure bleed characteristic. From my bench testing of several BCS'es, I've come to the conclusion that there is an optimum bleed response. A BCS that bleeds pressure from the WGA too slowly will give both a laggy turbo spool response and cause difficulty in tuning boost. However, a BCS that bleeds pressure really fast will also reduce the ability to fine tune boost. Again, both solenoids have a very similar bleed characteristic. IMHO, the GM has a slightly better bleed characteristic. So, the Grimmspeed has a slightly faster response time, while the GM has a slightly better bleed characteristic, and overall I consider the solenoids a tie in performance.
Reliability: The GM BCS has been in use on Evo's since around 2006. I am not aware of any failures. Grimmspeed looks to be well-made, and will likely be just as reliable.
Compatibility with the factory ECU: There is valid concern about matching the electrical resistance of the stock BCS. The GM BCS resistance is about 20% lower than the stock BCS while the Grimmspeed matches the stock BCS more closely. No one has the specs on what electrical current the BCS switching transistor in the ECU can handle, but a number of people (including myself) have run the GM BCS without a resistor and have had no issues.
Noise: A few people have mentioned noise as an issue. My recollection is that the GM and the Grimmspeed have very similar noise levels during operation.
Cost: The GM BCS with the PnP wiring adapter from spoolinup.com is around half the price of the Grimmspeed unit. Both are dirt cheap compared to many of the standard performance mods that people do.
Ultimately, both are great units. Run whichever of the two makes you feel good. I run the GM BCS (with no resistor).
thanks for that.
