The voice of reason!

Based on what, man?

All you guys and this internet speculation... It gets old and wastes bandwidth. Its NOT the injectors. Could it be on one or two cars? Sure. Could it be on your car? I guess it could.

 

What labs are we using for the oil analysis? I want to find one I can use when my oil change comes up, which should be 2 or 3 weeks away. I want to base line the car. I also want to take it to my local shop, DSG and have a baseline Dyno run with wide band data logging. Find out how rich MY car is, to see if there is correlation. I need some first hand data, its one thing to say, I saw this on the internet, Its a completely different thing to say I have actual data.

 

I don't know with any certainty why our stock tune sucks, but I have a theory. I wonder how Evos in the UK and Japan are doing on their tunes. Probably pretty good considering the Evos there have higher HP ratings than in the USA. Our gas kinda sucks over here. They use a different method to gauge the octane than us, but UK fuel is something like our 93 octane here and Japan's would be like 95 octane here. Evos in the US have to be able to survive on 91 so we get our own maps of course. Since Evos aren't huge sellers over here maybe not enough time was devoted to laying down the best map for us. It is a new engine and everything. They are most likely always working to improve the car, but maybe the US market just didn't get enough focus when it came to the fuel maps.

Like I said, I don't have any way of knowing this is the case. It just seems feasible to me that it is just an oversight and they are having to release flashes to fix what should have been sorted out before the car hit the market.

 

Thanks Noize for the clarification and your support on this issue. Your thoughts on why Mitsu developed the "OEM" tune" is interesting and what Mitsu will do or not do at this point in time is a bit premature. I thought there were very specific things that needed to be done up front before we go down the road to Mitsu. Specifically, the questions are:
(1) Is there excessive fuel entry into the engine oil of OEM vehicles?
(2) What is the cause of the fuel entry?
(3) What can be done to correct the cause?

To the first question, we have at least three X's with OEM tunes that >2%; some other X's are coming up shortly so we can see if this issue is endemic.

To the second question, we have a number of suggestions regarding the causes. A post by gsr indicated that a dealership claimed the excessive fuel in his engine oil was the result of faulty injectors and replaced/repaired them. While this may not make any sense given the engines performance, it nonetheless is a data point although it has not been established if this "fix" did, in fact, reduce/eliminate the fuel entry. Another suggestion, supported by the majority including yourself, is the extremely low A/F under boost that is adding excess fuel into the cyclinders and subsequently into the engine oil.

To the third question, if the cause of the excessive fuel is, in fact, the OEM tune, then all aftermarket tuned X's will have <2% fuel. To date, we have not seen, as indicated earlier, a single oil analysis from an X that has had an aftermarket tune; some are coming shortly (BTW,thanks to those that are steping up here). You may not think that this demonstration is necessary and that the result is obvious. However, if I may be the devils advocate and put on the Mitsu hat for the moment, the excessive fuel in the engine oil is not caused by the OEM tune but rather the result of a very few of the owners that have ignored the Mitsu directive of not driving the car hard during the warm up period. So we would not have a leg to stand on if we could not distinguish between these two completely different causes for fuel entry. The latter exonerates Mitsu, the former condemms it.

If we can demonstrate with some independent testing that excessive fuel is occuring in OEM X AND the cause is the factory tune, then we can discuss the next steps; The previous example of the X's"notchy" transmission and Mitsu ignoring appeals to fix is perhaps somewhat predictable by the simple fact that that problem is subjective; what is notchy to one is fine to another. Here we have some hard numbers which, if completed as per above, provide independent determinations of a real problem and its source that cannot be viewed as acceptable.

Later, Ken

 

My only "variable" is that my car was a dealer trade. I unfortunately do not know how it was driven for the first 180 miles.

Any recommendations for a Lab?

 

Realistically, I'm unfortunately skeptical that it even matters. Even saying we prove both that there is a major oil dilution problem, and that the stock tune is the cause, Mitsubishi can still say "You drove it hard when it was cold" and deny any related warranty work. This is my first Mitsubishi, but from what I've read, this would not surprise me.

From that point, it's up to you to take them to court. That'll be a hard battle, because you can't prove you didn't drive it hard during warm-up unless you have a camera recording every second you're in the car.

The cynic in me says Mitsubishi's going to screw us on this one because they know that they can. There's, what, 4k or so X owners and only a small fraction will be aware of the problem. Hardly enough people to cause enough fuss to force Mitsubishi to take notice.

... Now I've gone and depressed myself.

So we have someone with an aftermarket tune getting an analysis performed? I don't recall seeing that in the thread.

 

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

 

Hey Giz, To your last question first, go back in this thread and you will find the individual who has a tune and is having the his/her oil analyzed the results of which are coming soon.
Now to your depression: Yes, you are correct, Mitsu could have a fool proof counter argument IF some of the tuned cars also have >2% fuel dilution, thereby suggesting an intermitteant problem possibly related to specific drivers. If, however, ALL of the tuned cars have <2%, then I think it is stretching it to suggest that all these drivers ran their cars appropriately during warm up. For me, I have had a tune and a 1/2mi long driveway which opens into a 25mph speed zone for another 1.5mi until I enter a highway. Upon entry to the highway my car is at full temp. Now if my oil has >2% fuel after 3K mi between changes then, for me, I know that Mitsu's counter does not hold water.

Later, Ken

 

Oil Doc also offered analysis through Oil Analyzers, Inc. (http://www.oaitesting.com/) at his cost, which is $0.05 more than the $22.50 Blackstone charges. Oil Analyzers kits include postage, while Blackstone's don't, so you'd be saving a few dollars. Anyway, it's another option.

 

Same here, and even all current DBW Hondas alter engine characteristics while in the warm-up phase. Most lock you onto the economy cam lobe, or prevent changes to valve timing that would produce more HP in the higher RPM range. I was extremely surprised to learn here on the boards that Mitsubishi has nothing like this in place. A turbo complicates things, but still...

I have to agree with Noize on this. If they decide they don't want to address this, they'll simply say we drove the car hard when cold and be done with it. They're well aware that very few customers, if any, will pursue a lawsuit to get damage covered. Even if a suit is brought, you can't prove to the judge that you DIDN'T drive the car hard while it was cold. It's basically a free out for them, and they know it.

My hope would be that they'd simply do the right thing and produce another reflash before the problem gets worse since they've proven they're at least open to that as a solution.

 

Well, I'm fed up with this and taking action. I'm spending money that I really don't have right now and I'm getting a custom tune this saturday. This will be good because it will make my engine run cleaner and safer, and I'll pick up gobs of power at the same time. Mitsubishi ought to be ashamed of itself for releasing a car with a tune like this. I swear, it's as if they didn't even test it out on the car...

 

I am with you on this and it still amazes me that a company that has such advanced engineering in the drive chain from their experience in Rallying but yet could not anticipate and prevent this from getting into production is one of the enigma's of car production 101. That said, I want to thank you for bring this issue forward and if we continue to document our results with associated OEM causes, I think a united effort is a better approach than each of us complaining; I'm thinking of well drafted document that praises Mitso for developing a great car which we all love BUT there is this problem that we found ... data enclosed .... that we felt should be brought to your attention for betterment of Mitsu Motors ... something like that, sugar and vinegar; maybe have one of our members who can write Japanese would be willing to help here and endorsement from EVOM whatever that would look like; open to any and all suggestions.

Later, Ken

 

I have a MR and the oil consistently turned black with the smell of gas increasing with the miles! I have now an AP stage 1 map with a HKS drop in and changed the oil today with mobile 1. After 5 miles of driving normally in warmer temp of SoCal my oil is already a bit darker and has a faint smell of gas! Can this smell be from the previous oil dilution? Why does the color change so fast?
Thanks

 

there's a qt+ in the oil cooler and turbo.

 

STi2EvoX, will you be doing more Oil Analysis, after the tune to help in determining if the cause is the rich setting?

I will be doing this to share with everyone, but I'm weeks away from getting all this data...