I'm honestly not that concerned about it yet. However, I'm considering sending this upcoming sample in for further testing to be sure. $99 might be worth it to stop worrying about it. Pretty steep, though.

 

Yes, $99 is pretty steep, but you will get a comprehensive UOA, and a comprehensive interpretation of the data from Terry Dyson, and recommendations about what actions to take.

 

so let me get this straight...i know this is a old thread first off but anyway.....if you have the factory reflash then this thread persists to you....but i have a cobb ap and i checked my oil earlier and it smelled like fuel on the dipstick, it kinda blackish but ive also drove about 1000 miles since i last changed it.....you guys think it could be a leaky injector? im planning on going to cobb in plano and letting them work some magic on my car in may but is my car okay to drive as a daily driver?

 

not everyone at Mitsu is clueless, maybe you should try to find another dealer. There is a bulletin that addresses a rich condition, go to the dealer and tell them you have the symptoms of that bulletin. The factory knows more than anyone and do everything they can to make the car last at least 60K(warr), but more like 100K. With a race motor like in the EVO's it's a delicate balance between rich and lean, too far either direction causes damage.

There are also operating conditions you can follow to minimize the rich condition.

The dealer can be problematic if you put major AM parts, then you need an AM map and tuners can but don't necessarily consider longevity. Flash the map though, the warranty is questionable. Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with the AM, just realize the possible consequences.

the 5K oil change interval is a marketing gimmick, conceived apart from the engineering dept. Keeps lifetime service costs down. All the manufactures do it, so to compete Mitsu does it too. The truth is the interval should be 3K with synth in the EVO.

with the 3K interval and the latest stock map, IMHO, AFAIK, just don't think there's a problem that can't be addressed with proper operation and oil changes.

 

NWM tech, dude... reflashing your car will almost never cause a warranty issue. FACT: there isn't one single case of an EVOM member having a warranty denied for a reflash, and if there has been, it's never been documented here. With 90% of EVOM members modifying their cars, I'd say that if were going to happen, it would've happened by now. Even if you have a sheisty dealer, as long as you don't tell them that it's there, they won't look for it. The best recommendation that I can make is to establish a relationship with your local dealer.

If you go there all the time and have a good rapport with the service guys, they will go to bat for you if you have a warranty issue despite your modifications. My local dealer, for example, doesn't care about light mods; reflash, intake, exhaust, MBC, whatever. As long as it's not a huge turbo upgrade, it's no prob. Second, don't say that most tuners don't care about reliablility because that's ridiculous. In reality, no good tune is done conservatively OR aggressively; it's just about giving the car what it wants. Some cars like more timing than others, boost, lean AFRs, etc and you just give the car what it wants.

When you get to the point where the car is making the power that it wants to make and you notice that leaning out the AFRs or adding timing isn't really adding any appreciable power then you cut your losses and back it back down. So you see, you are not being overly aggressive or overly conservative, you are just giving the car what it wants. Any tuner worth his weight in salt will tune by these principles. Oh, and for the last time, the dealer reflash is unrelated to the fuel in oil problem.

The TSB that you keep mentioning is for the hesitation issue, not the fuel dilution issue. While leaning out the A/F ratios will theoretically reduce fuel dilution, the dealer reflash leans it out so marginally it's almost nothing. Again, there is a separate document about the fuel in oil issue, but it was presented as a BULLETIN, NOT A TSB. It stated that while the engine is cold, fuel can enter the oil if the car is driven hard. I have told you this more times than I can count, but you still seem to think that I making this up or something because it just goes in one ear and out the other. There was a thread about this months and months ago, but because the search function is all screwed up, I can't find it. I will call mitsubishi myself and get a copy of it if that's what it's gonna take.

 

Exactly.

Plus for most people it's not even a possibility to "find another dealer." I happen to be in a rare market that has more than one, but the secret is they share a location with another brand. One is a Kia/Mitsubishi and the other a Chevrolet/Mitsubishi (note the order). I love taking my $35k car to decaying dealerships I'm afraid to even sit down in.

But, the issue here is not the dealership. It is Mitsubishi itself. Let's summarize the bulletin: "If there is fuel in the oil, blame the owner and his driving habits." The conclusion is that the car was driven hard before the engine was warmed up, so it is not their fault. I doubt more than a few people on here drive hard on a cold engine: we're a generally knowledgeable target audience. The reflashes are not meant to address this issue, and obviously have little effect on it given our analysis results so far.

Mitsubishi has no fix for the problem. As I mentioned before, I think it is dangerous to let some random mechanic start swapping out parts on a new car hoping to get lucky finding the actual problem. In all likelihood you're doing more damage than good.

 

peace bro, most of what I say is IMHO, AFAIK according to the info available, just trying to help

I'm a tech at a Mitsu dealer. When a possible warranty repair goes over a certain $$ amount, approval from the DSM (district service manager) is mandatory. He works for Mitsu, not the dealership. The dealer can be on your side but the DSM has the last word.

'08 X, 58K mi. Original owner, no mods. No start. Tchain stretch due to lack of enough oil changes. Slipped time, had to pull head and fix valves. First thing Mitsu tech line wanted to know was, status of ECU flash (looking for AM flash, non found). Claim denied by DSM due to lack of maintainance. $3K customer pay.

'04 VIII , 42K mi. Customer complaint, no boost. On test drive, in parking lot at about 1,500 rpm the #2 piston disintegrated, probably due to piston "crystallization" (too many high heat cycles). Rod nearly tore block in half. Turbo back AM exhaust, K&N air filter. First thing Mitsu tech line wanted to know was, status of ECU flash (looking for AM flash), it was stock. DSM came to dealership to look for signs of AM adds like waste gate controller, nitrous etc. None found. $5K + claim accepted by the DSM, 2 reasons only, (a) it blew up during dealer test drive, (b) the customer had just purchased the vehicle used and had done no mods himself. Even with these 2 conditions the claim could have easily been denied solely for the turbo back exhaust. The customer was lucky, he drove with the no boost condition for 30 miles and it blew up less than a mile after he dropped it off.

Searched Mitsu docs for the bulletin you reference. There are 60 + docs on the EVO X. It's not in the permanent record, therefore it must have been a temporary message which is not serious or prevalent enough to make permanent status. OR, IMHO, AFAIK, the reflash addresses both a rich misfire and a rich condition causing oil dilution. I don't have access to maps to compare before and after so can't be certain either way.

It is possible that there is a oil dilution problem that is not being addressed. It is possible that Mitsu doesn't care because they know it won't affect the car before warr expires. IMHO, AFAIK, that's doubtful and 3K synth oil changes will make it last regardless.

sorry if I've offended, it's not my intent, just giving a different perspective.

 

It's a beauty mark cuz perfection is bad luck. Where else you gonna get the bang for the buck, turbo and cutting edge traction control?

It's both, there's a shortage of good techs, they're usually at the "palace" dealers.

Or they're informing of the procedure to maximize reliability with a "race car on the street" balancing act between perf and reliability. Not every owner is as informed as you guys are, witness the customer with 58K mi and only 2 oil changes.

Or they do and don't care because it's planned obsolescence, like GM in the past. Mitsu does have a history of covering up defects. This would be going past that from honest mistake to intentional malice.

Ask yourself this, Would you rather Mitsu continue to sell the EVO, or would you rather Mitsu go under because they can't afford all the warr claims caused by mods and a fix for an oil dilution problem that can be overcome with proper oil changes?

absolutely agree, so avoid random techs, and monitor even the ones you trust.

 

If I wanted bang for the buck I'd be in a MazdaSpeed3 or Cobalt SS. Or I'd go grab an STI from one of the several local Subaru dealerships who all appear to be doing quite well. Mitsubishi's not the only game in town. Having decent dealerships helps. One of our two dealerships only recently moved in with Kia, they were stand-alone previously. Not a good sign. My X is great, but it did the opposite of what a halo car is supposed to do. It convinced me to never buy any other Mitsubishi product.

The whole issue is ridiculous. I have to void my warranty in order to prevent damage to my car that should never have been allowed to occur in the first place. I'll change my oil more frequently than Mitsubishi recommends, but our results show that even every 2500 miles doesn't resolve the issue. So your only hope is to get a tune to set the proper AF ratio, which if you're to be believed is the first thing a RM asks about.

If so, that's a pretty awesome racket they have going:
1) Create condition that may cause engine damage
2) Refuse to acknowledge condition exists
3) Void warranty if customer fixes condition to prevent damage

This is speculative since we don't yet know if damage is occurring, but the conditions are right for it. A full 50% of those that voted in the poll are likely affected by the issue.

They only sold, what, 2500 Xs in the US... if that? If a proper fix is enough to put them out of business, their time in the US market is numbered anyway. This has nothing to do with mods. All of our results so far save 2 have been from stock cars and they were both for custom tunes meant to solve this issue.

 

Pretty much all manufactures are hurting in this economy, except Subaru, it's a fluke. Nissan with their GTR halo car just closed 2 dealers in this area. The Honda dealer I left down the street is selling 20% of what they were a couple years ago.

???????????

It's industry wide, the DSM okay for major warr. The written warr restrictions are also, very little AM allowed. Although some dealers give you the benefit of the doubt, because it's not out of pocket, the DSM does less so, because it is out of pocket.

there are MUCH easier ways to accomplish planned obsolescence if that's really what's going on.


Bingo.

The Japanese have advanced the auto industry by leaps and bounds. The Paris/Dakar is the most gruelling event in racing. Mitsu dominated. You might question their marketing skills, but you can't question their technical expertise. Their traction control borders on wizardry. Whatever they're doing with the map, IDK, but I believe they've got their reasons.

Go ahead and tune, a niche specialist might be able to make an improvement, it has happened before, because, no one (the factory included) knows it all. But it's an experiment, the factory with it's vastly larger resources has probably already tried it.

now, putting out fire with gasoline

maybe this is part of the problem

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

""The honed crosshatch pattern in the cylinder bore acts like a file to allow the rings to wear. The rings quickly wear down the "peaks" of this roughness, regardless of how hard the engine is run.

There's a very small window of opportunity to get the rings to seal really well ... the first 20 miles !!

If the rings aren't forced against the walls soon enough, they'll use up the roughness before they fully seat.""

""So why do all the owner's manuals say to take it easy for the first
thousand miles ???

This is a good question ...

Q: What is the most common cause of engine problems ???
A: Failure to: Warm the engine up completely before running it hard !!!

Q: What is the second most common cause of engine problems ???
A: An easy break in !!!

Because, when the rings don't seal well, the blow-by gasses contaminate the oil with acids and other harmful combustion by-products !!

Ironically, an "easy break in" is not at all what it seems. By trying to "protect" the engine, the exact opposite happens, as leaky rings continue to contaminate your engine oil for the rest of the life of your engine !!""

 

uh
anyway, for a small reminder and update on the issue I was having -
I'm running a IX, but after I switched to Amsoil SSO 0w-30 I was having a strange burning smell from my exhaust after about 500 miles of using the oil, as well as a VERY strong smell of gasoline coming from my dipstick. I sent my oil analysis in to find that I had a fuel dilution of 2.8%, which is when I made my post here.
Since then, I switched the Mobil 1 EP 10w-30, and had no issues. I changed my oil once more to Amsoil 10w-30, and I continue to have no issues, nor even a HINT of a smell of gasoline coming from the dipstick. I think my car just didn't like the SSO, whatever the case, I'm not going to run anything but 10w-30 in my car from now on.

 

there you go, it's called fine tuning AKA "the demon tweak"

wonder if the weight was part of the issue, there's an oil weight thread also.

 

I know this is an old topic, but surely an important one. Anyway I have nothing quantitative to add (no fuel analysis) only qualitative, but I recently finished my 600 mile "break in" and decided to change my oil. I used Mobile 1 EP 5w30. The old oil (from factory) had a heavy fuel smell and was visibly less viscous than the new oil which seemed to pour thicker (both being the same weight when new). Keep in mind this is only after 600 miles of driving.

I sincerely hope that now that my engine is broken in and hopefully the rings are seated that the fuel dilution problem will be reduced. The above poster also mentioned that using Mobile 1 EP helped greatly, hopefully this is the case too. I regret not taking an oil sample for analysis now, but maybe after the next 3k miles.

 

The engine will not be properly worn for the next few thousand miles. The final seating of the rings takes time. I have several bottles of Mobile 1 EP 5w-30 as well. Right now my car is at 350 miles. Will change oil at 500 miles to M1 EP.

 

Here is an example of how your UOA fuel data can be altered by the driving conditions that were observed just before you take your sample.

This is from a posting by "AEHaas" at BITOG:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...407926&fpart=1

"After the 3,000 mile UAO, at about 1 year of the cars life, I changed the oil to 0W-30 Castrol GC. I ran the GC for 3,000 miles now and decided to test the oil twice, cold and then hot after driving for 30 minutes around town. The car was sitting for 4 or 5 days before the cold sample was obtained. We then drove the car. We came home and drew another sample hot.

The engine is a 6.0 liter twin turbo W-12 with 550 BHP, compression ratio 9:1, top speed - 198 MPH and 0 - 60 dash = 4.8 seconds. The curb wt. is 5,500 lbs., EPA 11, 24 MPG.

....................OEM Oil - - - - - - - - - -> - - - - New Castrol GC - -
Miles on car...1,000 mi.....2,000.....3,000.....6,000 cold...6,020 hot
Miles on oil....1,000.........2,000.....3,000..........3,00 0+/-.........
Iron___________22_______23_______33_______15____15
Chromium _____<1_______<1_______<1_______<1____<1
Nickel _________1________2________2________1____<1
Aluminum ______5 _______7________6________4_____2
lead __________ 1________1________3________1_____2
Copper ________32_______34_______41_______7_____7
Tin ____________5_______3________3________1____<1
Silver ________<0.1______0.1_______0.1_____<.1____<.1
Titanium _______<1______<1_______<1_______<1____<1
Silicon ________ 37_______34_______39_______9_____9
Boron ________228______195_______219______17____16
Sodium _______ 15_______12________13______5_____5
Potassium _____<10______<10______<10_____<10____<10
Molybdenum ____91______81________92_______7_____7
Phosphorus ____1027_____936______1035_____865___877
Zinc _________ 1151_____1027_____1182____1000___1026
Calcium ______ 3228_____2915_____3301____1780___1857
Barium _______<10______<10_______<10_____<10____<10
Magnesium ____22________21_______29______455____485
Antimony _____<30______<30_______<30_____<30____<30
Vanadium _____<1_______<1________<1______<1____<1
Fuel %Vol _____1.5______<1.0______<1.0_____3.4____3.0
Wtr %vol ______<0.1_____<0.1______<0.1_____<.1____<.1
Vis CS 100C __ 12.3______12.1______12.1____10.9___11.1
SAE Grade ____30________30_______30_______30____30
Gly test ______Neg_______Neg______Neg_____NEG___NEG
TBN ________not done____NA_______NA______NA____NA
Abs Oxid______23_______27________29______14_____12
Abs Nitr_______10________13_______14______12____12
Fuel soot______NA________NA_______0.0_____NA____NA

...The last few trips were all less than 1 - 3 miles, the store, out to eat next door and to friends homes within the neighborhood. Half a dozen short trips from a cold start = fuel dilution.

...........I did another UOA after finally doing a drive to International Mall in Tampa, a total of around 3 hours on I-75.

The fuel dropped to <1.0 instead of the previous 3.0.
The viscosity is now 10.9 - previously 11.1 with the fuel at 3.0............"

So after sitting for 4-5 days, fuel is at 3.4% in cold oil. He does some errands that entail short trips totaling 20 miles, takes a hot sample, and fuel is down slightly to 3.0%. He then takes a 3 hour round trip on the freeway, and takes another oil sample, and his fuel is less than 1%.