Hey guys, ive been through an unfortunate situation, and would like some advice and technical help. And sorry in advance for any misspellings... Im writing from my Droid X.

I was test driving this guys Evo X GSR, which has an fp red, hks ssqv, perin 3port ebcs, cosworth mx1 cams, ets 4" intercooler, ams widemouth, test pipe, and e85 tune to boot. I went into this kinda skeptical about the stock internals, but upon talking with him, he assured me that the internals are just fine, and he would have no qualms about taking it on a road trip. So I was feeling pretty good about it.

When I took it out for a test drive, and he talked about the bov fluttering around 3k rpm, and looking around the forums here now, thats a sign of bad tuning. But he said that the bov is indecisive, and you either need to go for it, or not. At the time, I lifted.

A short time later, he mentioned compressor surge briefly, and simply said "be careful." So when I had enough road, I got up to 3k rpms, and started to add throttle, the bov fluttered, so I added more, so as to be "decisive", and then a rod was thrown, and oil went everywhere.

From a technical standpoint, I understand that the stock internals wouldnt be able to take much of the turbo, but around 3500 rpm, i wouldnt think there would even be enough boost to cause a problem. So was this a compressor surge, causing too much cylinder pressure, or is it related to the fluttery bov? Or are they very closely related? Also, how much of this would you say is my fault? The tune was designed for 30psi... On stock internals... Was I driving a ticking time bomb?

I would understand either case, but I would like some external opinion on what happened, and maybe a technical explanation here or there.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

 

I would say the guy was asking for trouble, sounds like the car had some problems, maybe a bad tune, either way I'm a firm believer of reliability and I don't think I would ever run that setup with stock internals and feel "safe".

 

Yes. A Red at 30psig on E85 is way too aggressive on the stock internals. Are you sure you were getting compressor surge? A Red has the anti-surge cover which should prevent that; it's very common for people to confuse BOV flutter with compressor surge when they are two entirely different things. Flutter occurs at part-throttle when you're barely into boost, while surge happens at full throttle when you're making full boost.

I do not think the flutter had anything to do with your engine issue, I feel it's the amount of torque you were making at a relatively low RPM. Plain and simple, you put too much pressure on the stock rods.

P.S. Get a better BOV (Cobb BPV or Synapse DV) for your next setup, the HKS is not a good choice.

 

This!

I've driven a few X's with the HKS, it flutters no matter how much you compensate for it. It just wasn't designed for the X, and why hundreds of Xs have them on them is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, I like HKS as a company, but the ssqv shouldn't be on the 4b11t.

 

It's the official choice for ricers across the globe

I can very easily pick out the knowledgeable vs. unknowledgeable owners at meets and the BOV is my starting point when determining that.

 

LOL never thought of it that way but you're right!

 

how does the Tial QR fit? I had it on my 8 and the only prob was the stock turbo. That BOV should be fine with the Black and not flutter right?

 

First of all, thanks for replying.

No, I have no confirmation on whether it was compressor surge. That's just what the owner told me. After doing some research, I now see that it doesn't make sense. Fluttering would be a for-sure then, and the rod snapping is because the owner put too much stress on the stock internals. This makes sense to me, I just needed some confirmation from guys who actually own and work on X's.

If I ever get in a position where I can get an X, I'll remember to stay away from the ssqv. I'll also never test-drive a car that has an upgraded turbo, and stock internals. I'd like not to have to deal with this situation again.

 

You can run an upgraded turbo (stock frame) on stock internals... you just need to be extremely weary that it was done correctly.

 

Is the guy making you pay for damages? I hope not, if he let you drive his car and get on it, he is liable. Now, if he let you drive his car but told you not to get on it because the tune or whatever wasn't right, then you would be liable.

 

Was this 3000rpm in 5th gear? Is he trying to blame you for this?

 

I was at 3000rpm in either 3rd or 4th (I can't remember precisely). It was around 40-45 mph. And the owner went to Tobz, the most highly suggested evo tuner in Denver, so I would bet my money that the tune itself was very good. The numbers he threw out were 475whp, and 425ft-lb. I struggle to see how it made that without throwing a rod, but I wasn't there, so I'm just accepting that it did make those numbers.

What he told me was the following 3 things (pertaining to the situation):

The internals are completely fine, and can take it, and I (the owner) would have no qualms about taking it on a road trip.

The BOV flutters at part throttle when boost is starting to build, so you need to either go for it, or back off.

There is compressor surge around 3500 rpms, so "be careful." He also explained that the compressor generates too much boost at this time, which does not make sense to me. The owner was not clear on what "be careful" was, which looking at what happened, it meant "do not accelerate at all."

The owner was told clearly that I am not familiar with big turbo cars at all, and that I had never heard of compressor surge.

Yes, he is trying to get me to pay around 4000$ for a new block (based off the price, Id say either an OEM short block with someone else installing, or an OEM long block with him doing the work).
According to this article from carinsurance.com, the owner is completely liable.
http://www.carinsurance.com/Articles...liability.aspx

I offered to pay for the tow, so I'm trying not to leave him completely out to dry, but legally, he is responsible for the block.

Would you all agree that he is responsible, and liable?

 

I 100% agree he is responsible.

Even if you got on it hard, it's still all on him. This is the whole reason for a test drive, to test if something is wrong, or in some cases, catastrophically wrong.

If I built a car, then put a bad tune or hell even a good tune, and someone test drives it, it is 100% all on me for choosing to allow them to drive my car. Sorry, to the owner, but this is your bill.

 

I dont kno about much about tunign but the part about the E85 and HKS valve kinda made me raise an eyebrow!!!!

 

Why were you driving the car in the first place?

That much power on the stock internals is known to kill our engines, and the 3000-3500 rpm range is where torque is building/fluxuating the fastest, and is where risk of rod failure is highest. It's not so much the boost or the torque itself, but the rapid change in torque that does it. This is why higher power FP blacks might last longer than FP Red/Greens on stock internals.

As for surge, it was probably just flutter. If the turbo were surging, you'd hear a 'womb womb womb' sound pretty clearly under acceleration. The flutter is... whatever sound your BOV makes, chopped quickly, during very light throttle modulation.

Someone asked about the TialQR. That's what i run, and it flutters a bit for me, mostly at highway speed when cruising. Not as bad as the HKS from what i've seen, but I cant comment on the other options.