(Resolved) Need help deciding on coilovers
Now that I look at it more, It does look stretched. It can also be the brand and model of tire. Im using the Summitomos that the dealer put on( probably least expensive tire option) But i can see Hankook RS3 or Continental DWS or star Specs run a little wider. or run 255/265 if your paranoid.
heres a shot from the tire install on the lift
[IMG]https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/members/revlimiter-albums-project-evolution-picture29371-rim-1.jpg[IMG]
heres a shot from the tire install on the lift
[IMG]https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/members/revlimiter-albums-project-evolution-picture29371-rim-1.jpg[IMG]
) to have a bit more stretch than my stockers on the stock wheels (DWS are my winter tire)
I have no relevant comments or suggestions other than to say it it was, what, a few weeks ago when someone said that he had no plans for his car. Just pads and tires.
I has no plans for my car, either, and that's why I'm thinking of driving out to STM tomorrow.
I has no plans for my car, either, and that's why I'm thinking of driving out to STM tomorrow.
Hahahahahaha!! A few weeks ago, Felix, I had no plans. The mod bug is a disease.
This further solidifies my reasoning that I think you should either stay with stock set up or get Swift Sport springs.
The way you use your car, there is no need to spend thousands? on coilovers.
The way you use your car, there is no need to spend thousands? on coilovers.
Let's be honest. For how most of us "use our cars" a camry would be fine.
But, that is not the point. We don't need AWD, hp to do 12-13 sec 1/4 miles, high grip tires etc. We certainly don't need to upgrade these things for most of what we do....we like doing it for look and for increasing the potential of the car as much for those times we actually get to unlease the car and use all the toys.
He wants to lower the car and at worst not lessen the handling and at best improve without having to worry about reliabiliy of the struts. He wants coilovers that accomplish his goals.
But, that is not the point. We don't need AWD, hp to do 12-13 sec 1/4 miles, high grip tires etc. We certainly don't need to upgrade these things for most of what we do....we like doing it for look and for increasing the potential of the car as much for those times we actually get to unlease the car and use all the toys.
He wants to lower the car and at worst not lessen the handling and at best improve without having to worry about reliabiliy of the struts. He wants coilovers that accomplish his goals.
I plan to be under $1500. That's $600 maximum more than Swifts and Bilsteins would cost me.
Let's be honest. For how most of us "use our cars" a camry would be fine.
But, that is not the point. We don't need AWD, hp to do 12-13 sec 1/4 miles, high grip tires etc. We certainly don't need to upgrade these things for most of what we do....we like doing it for look and for increasing the potential of the car as much for those times we actually get to unlease the car and use all the toys.
He wants to lower the car and at worst not lessen the handling and at best improve without having to worry about reliabiliy of the struts. He wants coilovers that accomplish his goals.
But, that is not the point. We don't need AWD, hp to do 12-13 sec 1/4 miles, high grip tires etc. We certainly don't need to upgrade these things for most of what we do....we like doing it for look and for increasing the potential of the car as much for those times we actually get to unlease the car and use all the toys.
He wants to lower the car and at worst not lessen the handling and at best improve without having to worry about reliabiliy of the struts. He wants coilovers that accomplish his goals.
If coilovers give him 90% of what he wants, and Swift Sports give him 68% of what he needs, price to value ratio comes into play.
That's all I'll say about springs. I'll let the topic rest from here on out.
Due to questioning, I feel the need to explain myself further on why I want coilovers.
I'm going to preface this by saying some things. First, I am an average driver on my very best day. My understanding about these cars is much stronger in engines, turbos, tuning, and gearing. My seat time on a racetrack with turns is limited, I've raced at one track day and a handful of autocross events. I haven't been on track in six years, or more correctly- since I've been a dad.
Migs647 is a good friend of mine. Actually, most all of the guys in here heckling me are really good friends. He nailed it when he said I've talked about selling the car a few times. I'm fickle with cars and I want to try new things. I've come back to the Evo several times, and this is my fourth. I would love to have a job where I could drive and experience several different sporty cars, and write or talk about them. There isn't a more fun dream job I could imagine than Jeremy Clarkson's.
All that stuff out of the way to say that I love cars, but even though I don't have the racetrack time some others do, I don't think it should negate my opinion about suspension. This thread kind of makes me feel like I have to earn my stripes on a racetrack to even deserve coilovers.
A lot of my opinions about Evos are due to the fact I spent hundreds of hours at Dyno4mance back when it was open and ridden in more of them than I can remember.
To me, an Evo is pretty racy stock. Out of the box they are pretty incredible, and designed with a ton of reserves for mod potential. While power mods are easy to quantify (dyno), suspension mods are so much more subjective and there are drivers of varying levels. **The biggest thing I want in an Evo is to improve or at least maintain that razor's edge it has stock.** This is why I always try to buy max performance summer tires, because I want rubber that is close to the Advans.
Here is what I don't like about the stock Evo X's handling and/or suspension:
1) I've unintentionally spun my X three times. I know it has so much more oversteer with SAYC than the CT9As did, but I felt that I could drive those cars much harder without risk of losing the back end.
2) The car leans at entry in sharp turns.
3) The progressive nature of the springs. One thing I loved about my BMWs was that they were stiff. They didn't handle nearly as well as my Evo, but they never surprised me. I guess what I am trying to say is that I would give up ride quality and civility around town to have a little more predictability out of this car's handling. I am sure that the SAYC is more to blame than the springs, but I think it would be easier to make peace with it if the car responded in a more linear fashion as the springs compress. This is a huge issue to me. I'm sure a better driver could adapt to SAYC and never spin their car. I don't have faith in it, and worse, if I lift, it will spin much worse. Need instructor.
Here are my fears about lowering springs on stock shocks:
1) Shock wear. This is not a dig on Swift, GTWORX, Eibach, or anyone. This is a dig on the stock struts. We are the sum of our experiences. I mentioned in another thread that I had a 2000 Prelude lowered on Ground Controls. It wasn't slammed, but 1.4-1.5 inch annhiliated the stock shocks in less than 5000 miles. I know people will say that is a Honda and this is an Evo, but the Prelude is not a total slouch in handling. Back in the day, C&D gave the M3 best handling car over $30k and Prelude best under $30k.
No matter how much more beefy our struts are, I feel strongly that any strut that is asked to be continually compressed over an inch -all the time- is going to have a shorter life. These aftermarket springs might be designed for the stock struts in that their rates aren't crazy, but the struts weren't designed for lowering springs at all. They were designed for the stock springs. While good companies like Swift and GTWORX have proven they won't kill OE shocks in 5000 miles, I know they will last less long that stock, forcing the shocks to have to be rebuilt. This is an area where coilovers have a benefit- a couple of the ones I am looking at have a lifetime warranty. When the shocks wear out, they'll rebuild them for free!
2) Experiences at Dyno4mance. The shop closed in fall 2009, and I have ridden in way more CT9As on lowering spings than CZ4As. But I know they aren't for me due to their feel from riding in them. They were low and didn't lean, but they also understeered more than my stock suspension car. They also felt like they tightened up like crazy when the suspension compressed a lot. I have been in a lot of cars with KW v3s (super popular at the shop back then), and none of these felt like this. They were definitely stiffer around town, but their predictability and linear feeling in turns gave me much more confidence behind the wheel.
3) Do it once. I am not saying there is no way I could like lowering springs. But based on my experiences, it would be crappy to have to pull them and change to coilovers (as many have) if I don't like them.
4) Advice. I've already dragged enough people in this thread, but people that I know who race Evos successfully prefer coilovers and recommend them over lowering springs.
Most of this is just based on feel and what seems rational to me. I know next to nothing about suspension, and I've tried to be really honest about that. I have no delusions about the financial side of it, and I don't have debt, I pay my CC off at the end of every month. If I have to wait a few weeks to pull this off, I'll let my new wheels stay in the boxes until I'm ready to do it. I made the mistake of installing mods I wasn't sure of on my VIII, and that contributed to my selling it faster. Even if I'm not qualified to drive the car at even 8/10ths with the coilovers, that's ok. If it's overkill, I'll have reserves built in. It it's a waste, it's my mistake to make.
Thanks for reading!
I'm going to preface this by saying some things. First, I am an average driver on my very best day. My understanding about these cars is much stronger in engines, turbos, tuning, and gearing. My seat time on a racetrack with turns is limited, I've raced at one track day and a handful of autocross events. I haven't been on track in six years, or more correctly- since I've been a dad.
Migs647 is a good friend of mine. Actually, most all of the guys in here heckling me are really good friends. He nailed it when he said I've talked about selling the car a few times. I'm fickle with cars and I want to try new things. I've come back to the Evo several times, and this is my fourth. I would love to have a job where I could drive and experience several different sporty cars, and write or talk about them. There isn't a more fun dream job I could imagine than Jeremy Clarkson's.
All that stuff out of the way to say that I love cars, but even though I don't have the racetrack time some others do, I don't think it should negate my opinion about suspension. This thread kind of makes me feel like I have to earn my stripes on a racetrack to even deserve coilovers.
A lot of my opinions about Evos are due to the fact I spent hundreds of hours at Dyno4mance back when it was open and ridden in more of them than I can remember.
To me, an Evo is pretty racy stock. Out of the box they are pretty incredible, and designed with a ton of reserves for mod potential. While power mods are easy to quantify (dyno), suspension mods are so much more subjective and there are drivers of varying levels. **The biggest thing I want in an Evo is to improve or at least maintain that razor's edge it has stock.** This is why I always try to buy max performance summer tires, because I want rubber that is close to the Advans.
Here is what I don't like about the stock Evo X's handling and/or suspension:
1) I've unintentionally spun my X three times. I know it has so much more oversteer with SAYC than the CT9As did, but I felt that I could drive those cars much harder without risk of losing the back end.
2) The car leans at entry in sharp turns.
3) The progressive nature of the springs. One thing I loved about my BMWs was that they were stiff. They didn't handle nearly as well as my Evo, but they never surprised me. I guess what I am trying to say is that I would give up ride quality and civility around town to have a little more predictability out of this car's handling. I am sure that the SAYC is more to blame than the springs, but I think it would be easier to make peace with it if the car responded in a more linear fashion as the springs compress. This is a huge issue to me. I'm sure a better driver could adapt to SAYC and never spin their car. I don't have faith in it, and worse, if I lift, it will spin much worse. Need instructor.
Here are my fears about lowering springs on stock shocks:
1) Shock wear. This is not a dig on Swift, GTWORX, Eibach, or anyone. This is a dig on the stock struts. We are the sum of our experiences. I mentioned in another thread that I had a 2000 Prelude lowered on Ground Controls. It wasn't slammed, but 1.4-1.5 inch annhiliated the stock shocks in less than 5000 miles. I know people will say that is a Honda and this is an Evo, but the Prelude is not a total slouch in handling. Back in the day, C&D gave the M3 best handling car over $30k and Prelude best under $30k.
No matter how much more beefy our struts are, I feel strongly that any strut that is asked to be continually compressed over an inch -all the time- is going to have a shorter life. These aftermarket springs might be designed for the stock struts in that their rates aren't crazy, but the struts weren't designed for lowering springs at all. They were designed for the stock springs. While good companies like Swift and GTWORX have proven they won't kill OE shocks in 5000 miles, I know they will last less long that stock, forcing the shocks to have to be rebuilt. This is an area where coilovers have a benefit- a couple of the ones I am looking at have a lifetime warranty. When the shocks wear out, they'll rebuild them for free!
2) Experiences at Dyno4mance. The shop closed in fall 2009, and I have ridden in way more CT9As on lowering spings than CZ4As. But I know they aren't for me due to their feel from riding in them. They were low and didn't lean, but they also understeered more than my stock suspension car. They also felt like they tightened up like crazy when the suspension compressed a lot. I have been in a lot of cars with KW v3s (super popular at the shop back then), and none of these felt like this. They were definitely stiffer around town, but their predictability and linear feeling in turns gave me much more confidence behind the wheel.
3) Do it once. I am not saying there is no way I could like lowering springs. But based on my experiences, it would be crappy to have to pull them and change to coilovers (as many have) if I don't like them.
4) Advice. I've already dragged enough people in this thread, but people that I know who race Evos successfully prefer coilovers and recommend them over lowering springs.
Most of this is just based on feel and what seems rational to me. I know next to nothing about suspension, and I've tried to be really honest about that. I have no delusions about the financial side of it, and I don't have debt, I pay my CC off at the end of every month. If I have to wait a few weeks to pull this off, I'll let my new wheels stay in the boxes until I'm ready to do it. I made the mistake of installing mods I wasn't sure of on my VIII, and that contributed to my selling it faster. Even if I'm not qualified to drive the car at even 8/10ths with the coilovers, that's ok. If it's overkill, I'll have reserves built in. It it's a waste, it's my mistake to make.
Thanks for reading!
Last edited by Noize; Mar 1, 2012 at 06:52 PM.
Issues 1 and 3 on your "what I don't like" list could well be related. Unpredictability can lead to a driving mistake that leads to a spin. Get some coilovers with linear springs and highly digressive valving for the ride. Something like KW V3s. That's my $.02 (and you probably paid waaay too much).
ps. you can't spin if you don't lift ... stop lifting
ps. you can't spin if you don't lift ... stop lifting
Issues 1 and 3 on your "what I don't like" list could well be related. Unpredictability can lead to a driving mistake that leads to a spin. Get some coilovers with linear springs and highly digressive valving for the ride. Something like KW V3s. That's my $.02 (and you probably paid waaay too much).
ps. you can't spin if you don't lift ... stop lifting
ps. you can't spin if you don't lift ... stop lifting
Have you taken the car to an autocross? Totally safe. Lots of throttle + turning. You'll learn very quickly that the car wants more gas, not less, when it's about to push. But you'll need to feel totally safe to get rid of your current/old habits. I didn't learn to trust it until the third or so event. Now I'd be dead if my pump ever went out without warning.
Also: do you really understand what the AYC does? I find that some people need this, too, or else their over-thinking + erroneous theory makes them do silly things.
Also: do you really understand what the AYC does? I find that some people need this, too, or else their over-thinking + erroneous theory makes them do silly things.
2. Please take the time to read my sig (was originally on another forum, but copied it here for people to see). The reason I advocate the GTWorx springs 100% over any other spring is that they feel like OEM in every way. NOT just in comfort. I went back and forth with Andrew@GTWorx for probably 2 months before I bought the springs. We were on the same page and GTWorx/RCE really UNDERSTANDS suspension. These springs are actually designed with the necessary stroke and travel to maintain what made the original X handling so great
They didn't really know 100% what the ride height was dropped too, and they didn't care - I liked that. They simply said - these are the spring rates and length you NEED to run minimum in order to increase performance - period.
I know what you mean when poorly lowered Evo's just buckle-up under load and understeer - that's why I love these springs. Others look at me and think I still have tons of body roll. It's completely controlled. There are times where I take sweepers so light-handely on the wheel because the car just flows WITH the AYC - just like OEM
Honestly, it sounds like the GTWorx are right for you. If #1 (shock wear/tear) bothers you that much, then I would go ahead and buy used bilsteins and re-valve - still much cheaper than an equivalent performing coilover
Have you taken the car to an autocross? Totally safe. Lots of throttle + turning. You'll learn very quickly that the car wants more gas, not less, when it's about to push. But you'll need to feel totally safe to get rid of your current/old habits. I didn't learn to trust it until the third or so event. Now I'd be dead if my pump ever went out without warning.
Also: do you really understand what the AYC does? I find that some people need this, too, or else their over-thinking + erroneous theory makes them do silly things.
Also: do you really understand what the AYC does? I find that some people need this, too, or else their over-thinking + erroneous theory makes them do silly things.
I've not autoxed my X and do know it is totally safe from past experience. I need to badly this year.
I do understand what SAYC does, it's progressive torque vectoring in the rear. My lifting has happened three times, when my entry speeds were higher than my confidence level, but likely well within the range that SAYC can handle.
1. Shock wear - I agree and it is a valid point. It's up to the owner to decide how much it bothers them. All I can say is I'm about 8k miles on my GTWorx, driven hard and I'm fine for now. once they go out - woot, time to get another upgrade and re-valve
2. Please take the time to read my sig (was originally on another forum, but copied it here for people to see). The reason I advocate the GTWorx springs 100% over any other spring is that they feel like OEM in every way. NOT just in comfort. I went back and forth with Andrew@GTWorx for probably 2 months before I bought the springs. We were on the same page and GTWorx/RCE really UNDERSTANDS suspension. These springs are actually designed with the necessary stroke and travel to maintain what made the original X handling so great
They didn't really know 100% what the ride height was dropped too, and they didn't care - I liked that. They simply said - these are the spring rates and length you NEED to run minimum in order to increase performance - period.
I know what you mean when poorly lowered Evo's just buckle-up under load and understeer - that's why I love these springs. Others look at me and think I still have tons of body roll. It's completely controlled. There are times where I take sweepers so light-handely on the wheel because the car just flows WITH the AYC - just like OEM
Honestly, it sounds like the GTWorx are right for you. If #1 (shock wear/tear) bothers you that much, then I would go ahead and buy used bilsteins and re-valve - still much cheaper than an equivalent performing coilover
2. Please take the time to read my sig (was originally on another forum, but copied it here for people to see). The reason I advocate the GTWorx springs 100% over any other spring is that they feel like OEM in every way. NOT just in comfort. I went back and forth with Andrew@GTWorx for probably 2 months before I bought the springs. We were on the same page and GTWorx/RCE really UNDERSTANDS suspension. These springs are actually designed with the necessary stroke and travel to maintain what made the original X handling so great
They didn't really know 100% what the ride height was dropped too, and they didn't care - I liked that. They simply said - these are the spring rates and length you NEED to run minimum in order to increase performance - period.
I know what you mean when poorly lowered Evo's just buckle-up under load and understeer - that's why I love these springs. Others look at me and think I still have tons of body roll. It's completely controlled. There are times where I take sweepers so light-handely on the wheel because the car just flows WITH the AYC - just like OEM
Honestly, it sounds like the GTWorx are right for you. If #1 (shock wear/tear) bothers you that much, then I would go ahead and buy used bilsteins and re-valve - still much cheaper than an equivalent performing coilover
In the interest of full disclosure, I talked to Myles yesterday based on reading your blog. He was super busy and on his cell phone, but answered all my questions. I just didn't hang up the phone feeling like they were the right choice for me. Some of that might be due to the fact he's out of stock for at least another week.
I could try them on the KYBs, and then get Bilsteins later, but they are still progressive, and that is what stops me. That and I really want to try a linear spring.