EvoX AMT-Allshift speculation
Thread Starter
Evolved Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
From: CNY
EvoX AMT-Allshift speculation
I've always hoped the next Evo would have a DSG-style gearbox, but that's not gonna happen. In fact it won't have a twin-clutch system at all. Several 'zines including the guy in the lancerproject video have already documented the next Evo as using mitsubishi's AMT-Allshift. Which is a SINGLE dry plate clutch electronically controlled in a 6-speed twin drum.
From what I found the only application of the AMT currently is found in UK versions of the Colt while other markets use the INVECS-III CVT (also found in the new Outlander and 2007 base Lancer). Apparently the AMT is the same as the Softouch gearbox found in MB Smart cars. I also found the Softouch transmission comes from Getrag.
While I was overseas last year I rented a Brabus tuned Smart Crossblade turbo with this transmission. It felt exactly like a manual, didn't hold hills, no clutch pedal, it couldn't launch, and shifting up gears manually took ~350ms or almost half a second. Granted that was a year ago and in another car so current UK Colt owners of the AMT system should comment, but DSG has been in mass production since 2003 and shifting up a gear on those things takes only 8ms with zero power loss. AMT doesn't seem to hold a candle.
But apparently Softouch2 cuts shift times down by half, and we can assume that AMT2 as it will appear in the Evo will be much better, but because it's a single clutch with a motor doing a human's job I don't think it will ever be as fast as the DSG. The principle is totally different... the DSG is designed to out accelerate and out-shift a human counterpart (and it does), the AMT's approach is to shift gears for you so you don't have to (convenience). If anyone knows more about the AMT please post it, or else they better let us test drive the auto EvoX when it's out. That's not to say i've already written AMT off, mitsu can still come through and amaze but as of right now I wouldn't give AMT the benefit of the doubt.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/features/amt.asp
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/cor...e/invecs3.html
http://www.worldcarfans.com/print.cf...0.003/lang/eng
From what I found the only application of the AMT currently is found in UK versions of the Colt while other markets use the INVECS-III CVT (also found in the new Outlander and 2007 base Lancer). Apparently the AMT is the same as the Softouch gearbox found in MB Smart cars. I also found the Softouch transmission comes from Getrag.
While I was overseas last year I rented a Brabus tuned Smart Crossblade turbo with this transmission. It felt exactly like a manual, didn't hold hills, no clutch pedal, it couldn't launch, and shifting up gears manually took ~350ms or almost half a second. Granted that was a year ago and in another car so current UK Colt owners of the AMT system should comment, but DSG has been in mass production since 2003 and shifting up a gear on those things takes only 8ms with zero power loss. AMT doesn't seem to hold a candle.
But apparently Softouch2 cuts shift times down by half, and we can assume that AMT2 as it will appear in the Evo will be much better, but because it's a single clutch with a motor doing a human's job I don't think it will ever be as fast as the DSG. The principle is totally different... the DSG is designed to out accelerate and out-shift a human counterpart (and it does), the AMT's approach is to shift gears for you so you don't have to (convenience). If anyone knows more about the AMT please post it, or else they better let us test drive the auto EvoX when it's out. That's not to say i've already written AMT off, mitsu can still come through and amaze but as of right now I wouldn't give AMT the benefit of the doubt.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/features/amt.asp
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/cor...e/invecs3.html
http://www.worldcarfans.com/print.cf...0.003/lang/eng
Newbie
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: Dearborn
Actually, DSG isn't the end-all and be-all of transmissions.
The future for transmissions will be "seamless" single-clutch transmission with special mechanisms to allow an almost instaneous hand-off of gear ratios.
See the zeroshift transmission:
http://www.zeroshift.com/products/gearboxtrace.htm
The link I've provided will show some traces of vehicle accelerations using various gearboxes.
It should be noted that in F1, DSG is banned, and all teams will be switching tthese "seamless" gearboxes. You can read about it in this months Racecar engineering.
Also, Racecar engineering did a feature article on Zeroshift. So I would think they're pretty reputable.
Lastly, the Zeroshift website claims their transmission will used on a production car for 2009. With more discussions with other manufacturers.
I hope the EVO X will be using this type of technology.
The future for transmissions will be "seamless" single-clutch transmission with special mechanisms to allow an almost instaneous hand-off of gear ratios.
See the zeroshift transmission:
http://www.zeroshift.com/products/gearboxtrace.htm
The link I've provided will show some traces of vehicle accelerations using various gearboxes.
It should be noted that in F1, DSG is banned, and all teams will be switching tthese "seamless" gearboxes. You can read about it in this months Racecar engineering.
Also, Racecar engineering did a feature article on Zeroshift. So I would think they're pretty reputable.
Lastly, the Zeroshift website claims their transmission will used on a production car for 2009. With more discussions with other manufacturers.
I hope the EVO X will be using this type of technology.
I've always hoped the next Evo would have a DSG-style gearbox, but that's not gonna happen. In fact it won't have a twin-clutch system at all. Several 'zines including the guy in the lancerproject video have already documented the next Evo as using mitsubishi's AMT-Allshift. Which is a SINGLE dry plate clutch electronically controlled in a 6-speed twin drum.
From what I found the only application of the AMT currently is found in UK versions of the Colt while other markets use the INVECS-III CVT (also found in the new Outlander and 2007 base Lancer). Apparently the AMT is the same as the Softouch gearbox found in MB Smart cars. I also found the Softouch transmission comes from Getrag.
While I was overseas last year I rented a Brabus tuned Smart Crossblade turbo with this transmission. It felt exactly like a manual, didn't hold hills, no clutch pedal, it couldn't launch, and shifting up gears manually took ~350ms or almost half a second. Granted that was a year ago and in another car so current UK Colt owners of the AMT system should comment, but DSG has been in mass production since 2003 and shifting up a gear on those things takes only 8ms with zero power loss. AMT doesn't seem to hold a candle.
But apparently Softouch2 cuts shift times down by half, and we can assume that AMT2 as it will appear in the Evo will be much better, but because it's a single clutch with a motor doing a human's job I don't think it will ever be as fast as the DSG. The principle is totally different... the DSG is designed to out accelerate and out-shift a human counterpart (and it does), the AMT's approach is to shift gears for you so you don't have to (convenience). If anyone knows more about the AMT please post it, or else they better let us test drive the auto EvoX when it's out. That's not to say i've already written AMT off, mitsu can still come through and amaze but as of right now I wouldn't give AMT the benefit of the doubt.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/features/amt.asp
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/cor...e/invecs3.html
http://www.worldcarfans.com/print.cf...0.003/lang/eng
From what I found the only application of the AMT currently is found in UK versions of the Colt while other markets use the INVECS-III CVT (also found in the new Outlander and 2007 base Lancer). Apparently the AMT is the same as the Softouch gearbox found in MB Smart cars. I also found the Softouch transmission comes from Getrag.
While I was overseas last year I rented a Brabus tuned Smart Crossblade turbo with this transmission. It felt exactly like a manual, didn't hold hills, no clutch pedal, it couldn't launch, and shifting up gears manually took ~350ms or almost half a second. Granted that was a year ago and in another car so current UK Colt owners of the AMT system should comment, but DSG has been in mass production since 2003 and shifting up a gear on those things takes only 8ms with zero power loss. AMT doesn't seem to hold a candle.
But apparently Softouch2 cuts shift times down by half, and we can assume that AMT2 as it will appear in the Evo will be much better, but because it's a single clutch with a motor doing a human's job I don't think it will ever be as fast as the DSG. The principle is totally different... the DSG is designed to out accelerate and out-shift a human counterpart (and it does), the AMT's approach is to shift gears for you so you don't have to (convenience). If anyone knows more about the AMT please post it, or else they better let us test drive the auto EvoX when it's out. That's not to say i've already written AMT off, mitsu can still come through and amaze but as of right now I wouldn't give AMT the benefit of the doubt.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/features/amt.asp
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/cor...e/invecs3.html
http://www.worldcarfans.com/print.cf...0.003/lang/eng
Last edited by taumax; Jan 21, 2007 at 09:14 PM. Reason: grammar correction
Zeroshift has been saying that for 4 years... shifting what is essentially a dogbox from a standstill isn't going to be pleasant. I bet those pucks don't last too long either. I'd be betting against zeroshift ever coming to market. It is going to have reliability issues, kind of like the Coates valveless head.
Newbie
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: Dearborn
Yes, Zeroshift has been developing their gearbox for years...
I'm not holding my breath either.
As for shifting from a standstill, a clutch plate will still be used.
F1 cars are switching to this type of transmission.
I believe that this technology will eventually filter down to passenger cars.
I'm not holding my breath either.
As for shifting from a standstill, a clutch plate will still be used.
F1 cars are switching to this type of transmission.
I believe that this technology will eventually filter down to passenger cars.
Zeroshift has been saying that for 4 years... shifting what is essentially a dogbox from a standstill isn't going to be pleasant. I bet those pucks don't last too long either. I'd be betting against zeroshift ever coming to market. It is going to have reliability issues, kind of like the Coates valveless head.
Evolving Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
From: Tax's Paid: Brewster, New York
Great post....
Mits
"AMT" Looks kind of weak, I have read lots reviews about it on the Colt in the UK, Most people do not like it & wished thay had not bought it.
Thank you for the good links....
TOMMY B
RALLY ON /////////////////
Mits
"AMT" Looks kind of weak, I have read lots reviews about it on the Colt in the UK, Most people do not like it & wished thay had not bought it.Thank you for the good links....
TOMMY B
RALLY ON /////////////////
Newbie
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: Dearborn
Yeah, it looks we'll have to wait and see how well Mitsu executes their AMT.
I'm just hoping they incorporate seamless shifting into their AMT.
I'm just hoping they incorporate seamless shifting into their AMT.
Trending Topics
Newbie
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: Dearborn
Yes it is a good indication, but not always.
I'm not saying that DSG isn't a good technology, I was merely stating that it's banned in F1 because someone else posted that the EVOX should have DSG because it IS used in F1.
I'm not saying that DSG isn't a good technology, I was merely stating that it's banned in F1 because someone else posted that the EVOX should have DSG because it IS used in F1.
Newbie
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
From: South Orange, NJ
keep in mind that EVERYTHING can change in a year... mitsu hasnt even banged out how much horsepower the engine will output, so the trannt to control that power is still a ways off to being developed...
...but on that topic, is it possible that this manumatic will start slipping soon after mods are added. I have friends with recalibrated 06 GTIs (2 for the record). 1 uped his hp from 200 to 260, and he is having trouble getting all that power to the wheels. just something to chew on...
...but on that topic, is it possible that this manumatic will start slipping soon after mods are added. I have friends with recalibrated 06 GTIs (2 for the record). 1 uped his hp from 200 to 260, and he is having trouble getting all that power to the wheels. just something to chew on...
Newbie
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: Dearborn
No, I disagree that everything can change in a year. By now, any powertrain hardware has be to be pretty much finalized. Keep in mind that it takes the calibrators at least year to finalize the EMS calibrations for drivability, performance, emissions, and OBD diagnostics. Not to mention that if the new Lancer is going to be DBW, a whole heck of safety calibration and verification has to be done.
keep in mind that EVERYTHING can change in a year... mitsu hasnt even banged out how much horsepower the engine will output, so the trannt to control that power is still a ways off to being developed...
...but on that topic, is it possible that this manumatic will start slipping soon after mods are added. I have friends with recalibrated 06 GTIs (2 for the record). 1 uped his hp from 200 to 260, and he is having trouble getting all that power to the wheels. just something to chew on...
...but on that topic, is it possible that this manumatic will start slipping soon after mods are added. I have friends with recalibrated 06 GTIs (2 for the record). 1 uped his hp from 200 to 260, and he is having trouble getting all that power to the wheels. just something to chew on...
Last edited by taumax; Jan 25, 2007 at 09:29 AM. Reason: grammar correction
I think the AMT trans, if that's what they go with, in the Evo will be pretty much designed from scratch. I wouldn't mind it being like a F1 trans having seen the Ferrari Challenge Series.
Newbie
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
From: Columbus, Ohio
No, I disagree that everything can change in a year. By now, any powertrain hardware has be to be pretty much finalized. Keep in mind that it takes the calibrators at least year to finalize the EMS calibrations for drivability, performance, emissions, and OBD diagnostics. Not to mention that if the new Lancer is going to be DBW, a whole heck of safety calibration and verification has to be done.
Add to this the lead time suppliers need in order to provide the product.
Somebody call Borg-Warner and see if a Japanese car maker has recenly placed a large order.
Newbie
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
From: South Orange, NJ
oh no, i was not referencing that they are going to change out and we will all of a sudden get a dsg tranny, but that since this car is a year away, the tranny that mitsu is using for the evo may not have a carbon copy of a currently PRODUCED transmission. I doubt that they will just port over the colt version. I think it will have advances not seen in the currently commercially available models. Sorry for my ambiguity...