jerastan

iTrader: (6)

Hey everyone. I have the BR580 installed on my Evo and have some issues. I have included 2 scans of dyno plots which show the boost not peaking until 6000 rpms and then dropping off almost 4lbs. We are using the TXS UTEC and TXS Dual MBC to control the boost. Any ideas to help resolve this would be just great. The runs on the plots were w/ 93 with a knock count of 0, and the room was damn near 100 degrees. I’m sure we will see more power w/ cooler temps, but the spool up and drop off are what I’m concerned with. Any ideas would be great. I'll throw on the ol' mod list as well.
Thanks,
Jeremy

ENGINE/DRIVETRAIN
Buscher Racing 580 turbo / Exhaust Manifold / O2 Housing
Magnus Sheet metal intake manifold
JUN 272 Intake Cam
JUN 272 Exhaust Cam
JUN Springs
JUN Retainers
JUN Adjustable Cam gears
Walbro 255 lph pump
Sard 770cc injectors
Sard Fuel pressure regulator
Perrin Fuel rail
Ported/Polished Head
ARP Head studs
Perrin Front Mount Intercooler
AMS Intake
AMS/Buscher lower pipes
AMS MAF delete pipe w/ filter
TIAL BOV
Axis Power Racing Upper Intercooler Pipe
Perrin Oil catch can
ATS Triple Plate Carbon Clutch
Threespeed Scatter shield
LancerShop.com Clutch line
Buscher Racing Mini battery kit
Perrin Radiator hoses
Ralliart Thermostat
Ralliart Radiator cap
Cusco Exhaust manifold shield

EXHAUST
Buscher Racing O-2 housing
RMR 3” Downpipe
Pruven 3” Testpipe
HKS 3” Hi-Power Cat-Back

SUSPENSION/BRAKES/WHEELS
TEIN Flex Coilovers
TEIN EDFC
Perrin Rear adjustable sway bar
Perrin Adjustable endlinks
Volk 18x8.5 SE-37K’s
Stoptech Stainless brake lines
Ferado Brake pads
Motul Brake fluid

ELECTRONICS
Turbo XS UTEC
Turbo XS Dual Stage boost controller
Ralliart Sports instrument panel
Defi D-series Boost gauge
Defi D-series Oil temp gauge
Defi D-series Oil pressure gauge
Blitz Dual turbo timer
Alpine CDA-9835 CD/MP3/XM receiver
1Ghz Computer w/ 7” touch screen monitor (interface w/ UTEC)


MISCELANIOUS
Custom Sparco Red Seats (front/rear)
B&M Short Shift Kit
Ralliart Shift Knob
Ralliart Carbon fiber shifter panel
Ralliart Titanium pedal set
Ralliart Trunk mat
MachEvo Carbon fiber armrest cover
Evolution VIII UK Badge
Perrin Antenna
Lineage Grounding Kit

SuperchargedGTZ

iTrader: (4)

have you spoken to David....you should give him a call and see what he says. Also....I am not a tuner but looking at your a/f's...they seem a little high at 21psi at 12.3. That does seem a little long for spool. 21psi at 5K...is alot slower than stock...but i am sure that you dont need me to tell you that. I would check all connections over and over again. If you are loosin boost, mabye it is a bad boost controller. Sorry I couldnt really help. I would definitely give David a call.

Good luck....

jj_008

iTrader: (8)

The lag is because you are not using the stage I-IV Buschur parts and the AEM w/ MAP. Well at least that is what he told evo8power. That is alot of lag. With your upgrades that thing should be spooling a lot faster if the quoted spool time by Buschur is correct.

jerastan

iTrader: (6)

if that's the case, i'll be giving AMS a call .

jerastan

iTrader: (6)

Well I just spoke w/ Tym. What a nice guy. He agrees that this is way too much lag. I'll have it back on the dyno soon to figure it out. I also spoke w/ someone at TXS about the boost controller. It seems that my dumb @$$ was totally wrong in my adjustments to the dmbc. I was turning the 1st top screw instead of the one on the side first. I had it backwards. Oops, my bad. Maybe that will get rid of the boost drop. Now i'm wondering what we can do in the UTEC to get rid of the lag. I'll also check for any leaks. Thanks again to Tym @ Buscher for his time.
Jeremy

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

You have to search for restrictions and leaks.. also, what are you cam gears timing set for? Too much overlap and you'll have difficulty building boost..

First (which you checked already) is your boost controller

if you wan't boost to build earlier, you would typically adjust the "attack" of the boost controller, then you need to adjust the bleed.. On an electronic boost controller, you can do this so that its all the way closed until it approaches your set boost level, then it opens to the point of your boost allowing it to hover at its set level. Not sure about the TXS MBC, but if you said there's two screws to adjust, then one is the bleed rate, and the other is likely the attack rate..
(BTW, if you want to adjust the attack of a manual boost controller that doesn't have any adjustment other than boost, you can use a bleed valve in the line, or change the size of the vacuum hose, the bigger the hose, and vacuum source, the faster it will spool, the smaller the vaccum line, the slower.. this is all within reason since it is only as useful as the nipple size on the wastegate actuator, however a big hose will act as a reserve somewhat so it may take longer to bleed off, which could lead to spiking... most MBC's are restrictor valves which restrict the amount of flow through them.. some are bleed valves which bleed a set amount of pressure off before it reaches the actuator.. Not sure what the TXS is)

Obviously you need to check several other things, but here's a few simple things to look at that caught me offguard because I never considered it an issue.. Check where your supplying your boost signal to the boost controller and wastegate, if its "Tee'd" off the Diverter Valve, that could be your problem.. since the vacuum source is shared by two items that have direct control over your boost levels, so in theory, if alot of boost signal is going through the MBC, you could be affecting the BOV's ability to stay closed under boost or it may be partially open as boost builds.. and vice versa, if it cannot provide adequate signal to the wastegate, or it is slow to build, it may take a long time for the turbo to "ramp up" enough signal to keep the wastegate fully closed, therefore very slow turbo spooling (its actually not spooling slowly, but it may just appear that way)

Look for exhaust leaks at the collector/O2 housing, or some other restriction on the intake side.. (The MAF sensor is not a restriction at this point.. though it could be at high RPM)

Also, if you have the Magnus intake, you obviously removed the EGR setup, make sure the EGR valve opening is blocked off correctly though you'd likely KNOW if it was leaking..

Again, check your wastegate actuator, make sure there's no play and that the internal wastegate flapper seating FIRMLY in the housing...

Look for the obvious, crimped/kinked vacuum lines, indequate size hose, improperly adjusted DV, etc...

jerastan

iTrader: (6)

Damn Jack. I have quite the list to start w/ now. Thanks dude.
Jeremy

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I've done this for almost 20 years.. I got bit BADLY when I built my monster grand national turbo setup..

Just don't let all the hype about EMS and the MAP conversion convince you that its your MAF sensor.. spool won't have very much to do with the MAF... you'd have to slow airflow into the turbo significantly and the MAF flows 600+CFM which means it likely wouldn't be an issue until you hit high RPM.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

If your getting really stuck, place pressure gauges before and after the Intercooler, its possible the flow of the intercooler is restricting your setup, you should easily be able to tell by comparing the pressure before and after the intercooler.. if the drop is more than a few PSI, then the intercooler may be the restriction.

David Buschur

iTrader: (53)

Wow, that is dissapointing. That is the biggest input I have.

I guess looking at the list of parts that you have and then the title of your post I am even more dissapointed. I know Tym took quite a bit of time on the phone with you to try and help. The "BR 580 turbo problems" is what is disturbing.

I think (NO INSULT INTENDED) that you definetely win the award for the most mixed part combination on an EVO. WOW is that a list of parts from everywhere!

Getting it to all work correctly together is going to be a chore and a half. I have seen very few cars work well with so many different parts on them.

I don't know that the problem is with the BR580. I am in the process of getting some AWD Dynojet dyno sheets from one of our customers, Mike. He has our Stage 4 kit plus the turbo kit and the EMS. Another shop did a race gas tune and a pump gas tune on the car for him. You will be able to see once I get these posted what it should look/work like. His car, our car and Matt's car were all done here Stages 1-4 with the EMS and with a 580 kit on them. All three of these cars can make 20 psi of boost from a roll on the road by 3800 rpm.

I am seeing more and more kits going out of here with mixed up combinations or incomplete modification lists and the results just flat out suck. I can't put the blame on the turbos as getting something to work is all about combination.

Take a look at how well the stock turbo works on these cars. We ran 11.65 @117.88 mph with the stock turbo and Stages 1-4 with the EMS. That is just a combination that is hard to beat. We did the entire upgrade path on the EVO's like we have done all the rest of our cars, in a certain order for a reason. You build on each thing and make it better.

The BR580 turbo will hold 30 psi of steady boost to 8500 rpm, that is what we are doing in our car. The 4 psi drop it sounds like you found the cause of it. I am unfamilar with that boost control, ours is very simple and only has one adjustment on it. Has worked well enough for us to run 7.81 at 175 mph on. I see the car is tuned on pump gas with no knock count. The boost I am assuming must be in the under 20 psi range. That would mean 16 psi or so when it dropped off. Dyno Dynamics reads low compared to Dynojet right? Just asking questions.

I am really sorry to hear what the car is doing, I just don't think the turbo kit is the culprit.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

batty

iTrader: (5)

I was just going to post that his list of mods are a perfect example of how going crazy with different mods can affect the balance of the car. Just the exhaust is three different manufactures.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Nah, I definitely don't think your turbo kit is the culprit.. I suspect there's some issue with the boost controller or even the intercooler.. I always tell people that you need to address the restrictions in the system, and your parts do that very well therefore when you use all of your staged parts, they work as expected. Heck, I can run 23psi of boost tapering to 21 on your parts on a stock turbo and have produced nearly 320 whp on a stock MAF without cams, pump or injectors at the moment..

Dave is right though, mixing parts from different vendors means you need to REALLY understand the capabilities and limits of each of these parts, otherwise its hard to know where your problems will turn up. His approach to tuning is nearly identical to mine, its the KISS (Keep It Simple Silly) Method, in fact, I think the only difference of opinion we have on it is that I prefer to retain the OE computer (Us NY stage guys get shafted on inspections)

Now, with all of that said, you CAN put together a good combination of differing parts, but unfortunately you end up being the guinea pig..

SO, with all of this said, you need to find what is causing your restriction and unfortunately it may require going through the entire intake and exhaust tract, part by part and find whats not a happy camper. Of course because there are so many different parts, there could be several optimizations.

BTW, what are you using for an upper intercooler pipe? It should be at least 2.5" diameter tubing and as straight a shot as possible..

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Oh and yeah, I think the dyno dynamics reads as much as 10% lower than the dynojet..

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Another thought because I didn't catch this either.. If your exhaust system is producing significant backpressure, it can affect your power output and slow the spool significantly.. though I don't see anything really "Bad" in your exhaust system other than a few unecessary bends and a possibly restrictive muffler..

ez76

iTrader: (5)

jerastan I noticed you have high duration high lift JUN cams. Let's start with the cam gears - what settings are they at?