sgplancer

iTrader: (25)

Well I finally got to do a datalog after getting my utec and tuner installed this weekend. My current mods are:

UTEC / Tuner
Stage 1 map (Stage 2??)
TXS downpipe
TXS RFL exhaust
Stock cat
Hyperflow/TXS intercooler
HKS suction intake
Perrin fuel rail
There are more, but these are the relevant ones.

I have had the UTEC installed for about 1 1/2 weeks, but I have been running map 0 (ECU pass through) until I could get the tuner put in. I had the o2 bung welded on right before the flange from the dp to the cat on the dp side of the flange.

After make a wo 2nd and 3rd gear run, I noticed a few issues.

1. The afr's are way way too lean. Kinda concerned about this, as the TXS map should be running fat, so I could tune them more to the 11.0 to 1 afr I wanted.

2. There are no knock levels recorded in the map. Now I know that no knock is a good thing, but there was some level of knock when I was running my SAFC2 previously.

3. My boost level is jumping up to 1.4/1.5 bar and tapering down to 1.2. This would translate to 20.3/21.75 to 17.4. This is not the advetised 20 to the tapered 19 by redline. I can deal with this though.

My questions to my concerns are:

1. The afrs are tooooo lean. I can add some fuel to the areas that need it, which seems to be all, but what about the timing. I am thinking that roughly 10 percent more fuel would be a good starting point, but how about the timing adjustments?

2. Why no knock??? The tuner has a secondary knock input, but the manual says this is a delete option. Does the tuner override the UTEC's knock signal, due to the fact that there is a knock input? Does anyone here use the tuner's knock signal, and if so, where did you install yours?

3. I don't think that I wil be adjusting the boost is closed loop, since you really can't go past 22 psi. I say this as sort of a question, so can this be done? And as for the ABC, what is this really used for? I seem to think that it is more of a stabilizer. Correct me if I am wrong.

Due to the fact the afrs are so lean, I am back to running map 0 until I get these issues resolved. Any and all feedback will be appreciated.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

The lean portions are due to the different MAF readings from the HKS intake.. I found the same thing with the stage 1 map and my mods..

ABC Is used to get you higher boost than 22psi.. But on the stock turbo, you'll get a momentary 23psi spike and it will taper to around 20psi anyway, so its up to you if you want to use it. Closed loop is good if you want to always hit 21psi regardless of conditions..

Ok.. Knock detection on the UTEC has different levels of sensitivity for different RPM ranges.. That is why you won't get the same level of activity that you'd get with the S-AFC. Its adjusted to not be as sensitive at low RPM when not under load, many cars get a little noisy at that low RPM and can show up as knock activity..

TXS Map does lean things out a bit, but it makes assumptions that your running basically their Exhaust or stock.. you can take out quite a bit of fuel when you do that, but with the HKS Intake, it will run pretty lean at torque peak, and lean overall through redline (I saw 12.0 ratios at times at high RPM because of the intake I was running)

The upgraded intercooler and pipes increses fuel demand because there's now more dense air so its also no surprise your running a little lean..

I had to add a significant (+5 or so) amount of fuel in the midrange (Tip-in through torqu peak) to compensate for the odd maf readings I was getting..

you may find your MAF readings are lower than other cars (1400hz or so) at high RPM so it will overall be leaner in general.. so remember you have to adjust the map for your mods.. You may notice that you don't frequently hit the 100% load site, so you can tune the load sites your are hitting, or adjust the MAF MAX value (though leaving that alone can give you tuning headroom)

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

BTW Drop the fuel cells that are -9 -11 and -13 to -8 -9 -9 respectively.. maybe even more..

Your running at the 70% load site, you can adjust your MAF MAX to 1500 Hz or leave it alone and tune around it.. your injector duty cycles are very low, and because its running with such a low MAF value, you can see the difference in the timing of what the Map is using, and what the ECU wants to try to use.. BTW You can run as much as 21 degrees of timing if you can get the afr's down to 11.4 or so (at 6700 rpm and up)

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Don't forget that the stock DV Leaks at 19psi, but your car is showing the same pattern of boost I was getting until I installed the ABC..

BigBoogieman

I think it does mention in the manual that you need to install the ABC if you want to run their recommended boost levels based on their map. They don't mention how far you're supposed to open it though to get that 20..19 level.

I think closed loop boost is a really cool feature. Seems to work pretty well so far, we'll have to see when the weather gets colder if my boost levels will stay the same. Seems pretty bizarre though that they don't let you program the boost map in PSI...

BigBoogieman

Looking at your log, it does look like the ECU is detecting a slight bit of knock, though it's not registering on the UTEC. See where the ECU timing fluctuates at 6887 and up? The ECU is slightly more sensitive than the UTEC on my car too. Of course you could adjust the sensitivity if you want. But who knows, maybe the ECU is actually a little too sensitive there...

Note how much lower the default map's timing is than what your ECU wants to run. The timing is really conservative in their default map. You will see a significant power increase if you set the whole timing map to ECU. I wouldn't do that until you get the AFR straightened out though.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I think that the fluctuation in the ECU's desired timing may have been due to the fluctuations in the MAF reading, at least that was what I was experiencing since I would get a similar circumstances with very little audible noise (mostly valvetrain noise) with my headphones..

But your right, if its a concern, set the knock settings to be more sensitive.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Actually it makes sense, the PSI value has a direct relationship to correct calibration, the digital value is "unit-less" and therefore doesn't really have a value to correlate with it other than a characteristic of its function.

Remember, depending on how your sensor is calibrated, size of your vacuum lines, whether or not the boost solenoid is stock, whether the ABC is installed and whether or not that restrictor is there, will have a direct effect on what number that is with relation to the boost pressure..

sgplancer

iTrader: (25)

First off, I hope you don't take offense to this Jack, but I am going to reply in one single post.

To make sure I see all load points, I adjusted the Max value to 1500hz. Thanks for the insight on this one.


& I am using it, but haven't quite figured it out yet. I am thinking that I should just install a Map sensor so that I can tune based off of boost. My question is is it easier to tune or is the MAF calcs the easier way? I know that this question is a bit biased based, but have you found one way (MAF or MAP) easier than the other.

I do understand the leaner conditions are based off of my intake and intercooler setups, but my question still remains somewhat unanswered. By removing fuel, you lower afrs. This is clear to me, but how is the timing effecting the overall scheme of things? I don't want the egts to rise if the timing stays the same (if that is a problem from only adjusting fuel).

Which cells are you refering to?

Let me end it here. As soon as I can get some input here, I will then analyze the input and make map adjustments accordingly and post a new thread at a later time.

Once again.. Thanks to all that are involved. I hope to get some sort a firm grasp on the Utec in the near future, and this section of the board is a very valuable resource for this.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Timing and AFR are not directly related but they do influence each other....


Too little timing, and you can get extremely high EGT's since your getting burning gases exiting the head, too much timing and you will get detonation that can damage the pistons (the gasses begin expanding too much and generating pressure before the piston is at TDC)

For the AFR's, too lean can cause high EGT's and melt the pistons or cause hotspots that can cause detonation, too rich, and you'll get incomplete combustion and again, hot burning gases in the exhaust manifold again, however too rich won't cause too much heat in the combustion chamber because it will absorb the heat, hence more fuel (within reason) means you won't be as prone to detonation..

Does the relationship to EGT and timing/AFR make sense? This is key to tuning.

Ok.. for the boost, I found a bug in the current firmware (v1.3) that if you excede your set MAP level specified as the Max Boost, the load site drops down.. so keep it at MAF based for the time being, it should work a little better since the mass airflow takes both air density and indirectly boost into account. It confused me at the time since I rarely hit and stay on the 100% load site no matter what I did.. So Don't use Map/TPS based mapping, leave it as MAF..

Anyway, if you look at your Fuel map, you'll see there are quite a few cells that are -9 -11, etc.. The easiest thing to do is select the entire map, and add +3 or +6 to the entire map except for the 0% column.. I posted a rough map with no timing on it, that has what I found to work with these mods .. but here's a rough idea of what the fuel map should look like, it will need adjusting though.. a quick summary: 3000-4500 should have a positive value since you will likely need to add fuel (+3 to +5) you need to look at what load sites the MAF puts you in on your logs.. From 4500-8000 you need to gradually remove fuel until you end up around -9 or so.. that should get you in the 11.6 range or richer.. The easiest thing to do is pick a particular load site column (80% for instance) and put those values in the column.. copy the columns to the remaining columns and do a few test runs, and adjust the different load sites accordingly...

From a timing standpoint, once you get safer AFR's you can actually tune a little more aggressively (pull a degree or two, but I've seen high RPM timing as high as 22 degrees and midrange as high as 6-10 degrees) But safe ranges seem to be around 17-21 degrees (approaching them one degree at a time, and depending on octane rating of your fuel)

Ok, I lost my train of thought for the moment, so I'll try to expand on this a little later.. Don't take offense if I generalized and simplified everything too much.. It helps to get the basic info out there for others..

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Whe you added the ABC, did you remove the entire line from the T connection to the Solenoid? or just cut into it and add the ABC? If you replaced the entire stock line with the 4mm hose, and put the ABC in to that, you'll get around 23psi spike tapering to around 20psi, you can then open the ABC to get a slightly higher boost, but I chose not to open it since I was getting the boost curve I wanted. (I also have a new solenoid setup that is much more stable)

I noticed when I did the buschur intercooler, that I lost my "signal source" for the stock boost solenoid, so I had to T it off of the DV (BOV) I put a one-way valve in the line to the solenoid so under vacuum, the DV is getting an adequate signal, but I find it opens a little early under boost..

sgplancer

iTrader: (25)

Jack, post number 10 is a great help!!! I will try to get a rough map put together and install in on map number two. Do a couple of pulls and adjust accordingly. I will post my findings on a new thread at a later time.

As for the ABC, I just spliced into the existing line, leaving about 40 mm between the stock solenoid, and the t to the abc. I turned the set screw 1/2 a turn to the positive and this is where I am at for now. I see the more stable readings at or around 1.4 bar with an occasional spike to 1.5 bar. I ended up recording the readings on my defi bf gauges to see what the run looked like after I logged it on the laptop. I am also running 93 here in houston.

Anyways, for now I have some knowledge to start my tuning process. I hope to do some tuning this weekend, and post some new results on Monday. When you get to tx Jack, we'll have to hook up for a or two.