Determining whether you want a full EMS versus a piggyback should be based on your needs and financial obligations. Full EMS has much more variables and tuning points with which to extract more power; having said that, GReddy's piggyback has enough variables - air / fuel and timing for example, which with to extract decent amounts of power.

Full EMS pretty much replaces most of the stock restrictions and maps that come with the car, and for our cars, we all know these maps are very conservative (after all, our cars were designed as economy cars, not performance). However, the price tag associated with a full EMS, and the subsequent trips to get dyno tuined may not prove financially advantageius for most. On the other hand, Emanage can get the job done adequately, even though it is still a piggyback and is still limited to some extent, by the stock ECU.

For our cars, I have seen the stock ECU do weird things around 300whp... I would recommend full EMS over that. However, most on the site wont see that much whp, so if that is not a concern, the GReddy unit should work just fine.

 

thanks for explaining that, i will just get an emanage and get it tuned by a friend, and i dont plan on passing 240 whp at the most. even if i do pass 300 by that time ill have enough money to by an ems cause if i can spend the money to get to 300 then ill be rich. lol.
thanks for the advise boe and airquez, its truely appriciated youve saved me a motor and lots of money before it was too late.

 

The E-manage can be tuned as efficeintly as the AEM to a point and then you run into stock ecu limitations. The biggest thing the AEM offers isn't really the tuning as most piggy backs can do that with ease. The real LIFE saving features of the ems is the ability to have active knock/temp/alititude controls.

Emanage has some add on features which can do some of these things but they make the cost about as much as the AEM. If you don't have a laptop you can't tune the e-manage either. If your having a local shop tune it you should use the AEM anyways as tuning is tuning and you'll have much better gains, control, and safety with the AEM than any other tuning device.

If you just can't afford it than emanage but if you can save a little more and buy AEM that is the way i'd go. E-manage will never be able to do what the AEM can do nor come close to it in SAFETY!!

At the track the AEM will even assist with lauch control rev limiting so your launches can be near perfect everytime.

Remember with emanage you can't control everything on the car... with AEM you can. Maybe a sensor doesn't like seeing boost or wigs out in boost. This can throw the stock ecu into a fault loop and you may have a hard time finding out why. Then you can try signal clamps but that is a cheap way of avoiding the problem you have and locks signals so their no longer viable from a certain point.

By now you should have a good comparison to go by. I'm not steering you either way as both are viable solutions. Just don't regret going one way instead of the other. This info will help you make a financial as well as knowledgeably based decision.

 

Also if you do decide to go full EMS, dont limit yourself to just AEM... there are TONS of excellent EMSes out there that each have their pluses and minuses and some are easier to work with than others. GEMs, Wolf3D, Microtech, Autronic, Haltech, etc etc... tons of great EMSes out there.

Like Boe, I am not steering you in any particular direction. Just want you to make informed decisions so you dont get something that you dont particularly like or cant work with.

 

Yes I do realize that, but at only 6 or 7 psi I should not be outside the safe range of the stock ECU as far as the timing goes. I think with an SAFC, FPR, and a Walbro 255Lph that I will be fine because it is low boost. Once I decide to up boost and then upgrade the whole set-up, I can look into a piggyback or standalone.

 

Good luck with the SAFC... there will be pistons waiting for you later.

Just to let you know, since you've got it figured out... the stock ecu has no boost tables to adjust/control fuel in. So thinking 6-7psi isn't outside the parameters is wrong. Not that you can't do it when done right but at least new pistons are available for you thru many places.

 

SAFC--- good for NA
SAFC--- good for tuning out really big injectors but the car will run like crap that way.
SAFC--- cannot add fuel to ecu while in boost as there is no boost table on the NA lancer.

All this has been proven many times but it's advice you can take or leave.

 

I disagree. But I guess the argument is different cars, different platforms.

I run 460cc's on my setup now and at low / no boost, car runs fine (cept for my atm. vented BOV) and on high boost, car runs like a champ. This is with just SAFC and SITC as my piggybacks (SITC still set at 0s). Granted Emanage is better than just an SAFC; still, I just dont understand how so many Lancer guys are having problems with AFC control on boost, when the Miragers have been doing it for years.

 

I was meaning that as the ECU is programed to adjust for barometric pressure it will adjust for 1 or 2 psi and can pull timing a little... this will keep me out of the detonation zone. This is what I have learned from reading past posts... If it is wrong, correct me. SAFC's have worked fine for others from what I have seen / read... The FPR adds fuel when in boost so the SAFC can do it's job.

 

On the lancer ecu the map table has no compensation for boost... the Karmen vortex sensor can see some variations barometric pressure but it does nothing to timing. Instead it tries to adjust fuel but it can't even do that right. I've beat this into the ground for many people.

The AFC does work but in only two ways. In boost you can use it to pull fuel out but you cannot add fuel with it. The only way to add fuel is to raise pressure or bigger injectors. During light boost situations you won't be adjusted anywhere near right and the car can feel choppy/sluggish. During driveability/no boost you can tune out the big injectors and get things driving ok but if you go to big on the injectors you won't be able to get the entire drive band narrowed down enough. In some areas you'll be fine but in others you be either lean or sluggish. This process tends to throw the ecu into a open loop fault/limp mode sometimes and the car will drive like crap until you get it back into the region it wants to be in.

For the money go with the emanage on the lancer instead of the AFC. While it will still only be able to pull fuel in high boost situations you have way more fine points to tune in. The AFC doesn't narrow out a certain point instead it tunes to an area or band in the rpm scale/throttle position. Depending on the one you choose you can have either 4-8 areas of adjustment. With the emanage you get over 800 areas. You'll find that it is way better and it can pull timing as well with the timing harness. Something the AFC/SAFC can't do!

Some will say it can add fuel in boost but they are confused. If you add in monster injectors and have to pull fuel to run 7psi at a descent afr then you can add fuel back in since you pulled it out. However the monster injectors may not be able to be tuned out in lower rpm/no boost situations. If you use to small of injectors you may find you can get it driving perfect but in boost you run out of fuel and the SAFC/AFC/PIGGY can't add it.

I recommend not exceeding 440cc injectors for the emanage... and not exceed 370cc for the AFC/SAFC. While these may not get you enough fuel for what you want to do you can easily play with the fuel pressure and retain driveability thru the fuel managament units and get the fuel you needed. Of course you may need to use a bigger FPR than a 1:1... or you may find yourself setting base fuel pressure to about 60psi on the 1:1 in order to get things to work properly. Our cars are set at about 34-38 psi stock. This isn't suitable for boost.

I'm only trying to help you out in this... you can spend your money and time either way you want. If you try it and it works out well enough cool... if it doesn't then you know what to do to get it to work. Just remember AFC's and PIGGY's work in the confines of the stock ecu parameters. This goes for knock/temp/baramotric pressure/fuel/timing variations. The stock fuel maps and timing maps do not travel high enough for more than 1-2psi. At that point you basically peg the map out and are adjusting one cell of the stock map to every driving condition at that rpm. This is were it pays to have the most adjustability possible and the AFC/SAFC just doesn't offer it on this car.

On turbo cars or ealier ECU's it works... but in ours there are issues.

 

I know you are trying to help Boe, and I REALLY appreciate it... I am just trying to understand this stuff and info on these forums can be somewhat sketchy. Thanks for the help!

 

So, Boe, what do you recommend us to do? 6-7PSI IC with a 255 walbro pump and 12:1 FMU. Im getting confused with all this stuff. i dont want to run a standalone on my car but want a setup that wont fry my motor. At least im not looking to jack my boost up and want something quicker on the street. Do i need a piggyback system if so which one?

 

No worries... i've put down a lot of info thus far. Some is restated differently and some is said to further make a point. All if it is the truth and can be used wisely by all.

You should be just fine with that but don't go past 7psi. For durability and longevity i recommend you stay at 6psi. The best thing you can do, since all custom setups are different, is dyno the car after you're done to ensure proper AFR's as well as output. If things seem a little lean drop the boost down a pound. If they are still lean then you either have to much boost for your application, to big of a turbo, to small of injectors,etc... Playing with any of these can drastically effect your power and AFR. Finding that happy medium is essential to save costs and the motor. There are enough posts/setups on evom to decide on all these factors though. Good luck.

 

well let me put in my .2c.

after reading this whole thread i have reached a conclusion. no matter what you do to stiffen a 4G94, you WILL blow it up. no matter how hard you try and how little boost you use, adding a turbo will blow up your car. i started a savings account at work. They will skim $375 off the top of my checks every week. for the next 12 weeks. i was planning on using that for a turbo. i am having second thoughts now. As a matter of fact i am having second thoughts on working on this lancer at all. and moving my efforts on to something else. it appears that the 4G94 is just an engine mitsu put out to dupe us all out of our money. In retrospect i love my lancer (Phantom) is has been there for me through thick and thin. i will continue to retore it to it's former glory. then i will pass it on to my GF. I hope you all understand the risks being taken spending $3000 - $5000 on a turbo only to blow up your engine. I on the other hand don't have the time or patience to blow up anything short of a GIJOE. I refuse to own credit cards, they are creidit nightmares for me. i met a kid who bought a new body kit and wrecked it hitting a pole 2 weeks later. he said he couldn't afford to fix the kit because he got a CC to pay for it. and he has to pay off the CC. so now he has a junky looking kit. He thought he was cool doing a monster garage on his stock body parts. i am going to continue my funding of the savings account, so i can stay away from blowing up my car, and causing myself grief. I don't want an engine swap, i am going to save till june, where my 1/2 year bonus and Phone deposit come in. I should have around 6000 to spend on whatever i wish. i think i will buy an EVO and leave it stock. thanks for listening, you are all much braver souls than i am, but turbos scare the SHlt out of me. so do dogs and this guys mom i met. have fun, the phantom will be all bolt ons N/A, PNP, with a little form in there. bye guys have fu n with your turbos. OH and also go with the TSI turbo, so much cooler. IMHO.

 

Sad to see you back out, but in one aspect you are correct: turbos are financial obligations that put strains on your wallet, with monies that could best be spent elsewhere.

However, even though I cant blame you for your concerns, I dont agree with some of you statements. Turbos done right wont blow your engine up. Conservative boost AND TUNING wont blow your engine (unless you are a complete moron). Only when people try to do things crazy or take shortcuts, or not have the necessary monitoring tools, is when things go kaboom. Ask any of the blown motored Lancer guys if they were tuned, or if they had monitoring tools or such and most likely they will tell you no.

As for your analogy on the kid with the bodykit, there are more financially lucrative ways of saving and spending on a turbo kit, without depleting all your reserves or cash. Buying in stages or setting aside money can prevent the "credit card" demise. From the day I first bought a turbo part (or at least attempted to) to the day I was turbo, it was 1 year and 6 months. And even though I still have minor issues to work out, the car is running stout.

One last thing, you contradict yourself. Owning a factory stock turbo car and turboing a factory non-turbo car can have the same risks and problems, with neglect. Likewise, both can last you a while, if you care for them and treat them well.

Even though I cant say I blame you for saving your money and putting it towards more lucrative venues, I dont want this "blown motor" misconception keep you from following your dreams. In whatever you decide to do, good luck.