Ahhh im sooo frking maaddd... i had like millions and millions of important information for you guys,... and it all f'n dELeted on my *** im soo mad!... it was good stuff... lemme attempt again!

 

heres a stage by stage thing, i kinda started this already

stage 1
cai, full exhaust, spark plugs, wires

stage 2
gauges, nitrous-optional, clutch, cams, better gripping tires

stage 3
tb-bigger single, double or quad, new computer and tuning, lsd

stage 4
high compression pistons, rods, internal stuff, port polish, blueprinting

that would cost a lot of money though and would probably void the warranty on everything, including the paint, lol

 

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Phew that took long... have fun reading... and I reiterate.. READ waht i posted... it helped me understand alot!!!!

 

Wow, this was a popular thread--I can't keep up.

Let's see.

I don't know where you're getting that. Let's say you do a high compression build with phatty domed pistons, high rate valve springs, etc. Now you're running 7500 redline, and playing with high compression and less forgiving air/fuel ratios.

How is that not going to wear out the engine?

If you go so far as to spend all the money on an engine tear-down and rebuild, you're not going to be expecting long engine life. Let's just throw that idea out the window right now. Power = engine wear.

Smog tests. Well, ditto--you think you're going to be able to get this car smogged!? If you go that crazy with the engine build, you're also going to have to get crazy with the electronics. Find me an aftermarket ECU that supplies OBD-II codes.

And certainly, anyone building an engine isn't going to leave it all nice and stock-looking under the hood. A cop will get pissed at even an open-air filter or colored hoses.
Now imagine what he's going to think of a tubular header and polished valve cover.

There is no such thing as a carb-legal mod, other than a select-few expensive bolt-ons.

If you're going to make power with NA it isn't any cheaper than turbocharging--you can't spread out the money like you're thinking. The second you decide to tear into the engine, you're going to do it all at once. You're not going to rip the engine out and bore the cylinders, then later decide to knife-edge the crank.

Are you thinking about bolt-on's only? In that case, you're not going to make a fast car.

Nothing wrong with being different, definitely, but there's hardly any of you running turbos so far, and just because you go turbo doesn't mean you have to be like everyone else. Look at all the DSMs running different setups. No one runs a setup exactly like anyone else.

The reason I say don't go NA is simply this--you're not going to get a large power increase and retain driveability! This is a small engine, so if you bore it out to 2.2 liters even and bump it up to 12:1, what does that gain you? 80 horsepower? Then what? Where do you go after all that? Rip the motor out and spend another $4000 on upgrades that are slowly maxing out the power potential? You can only suck so much air.

Turbo lag is over-hyped. With a moderately-sized turbo, you're going to spool in the early 3000's anyhow. You've got a fairly torquey engine as it is, so you've got good off-the-line grunt.

In a front-wheel-drive platform, if the turbo kicked in at 1500 RPMs all you'd do is spin the wheels off the line. Trust me.

Right now, i'm putting down around 280 horses. I spool by 3500 RPMs but it doesn't matter, because I can't go full-throttle in first gear without lighting up the tires, even with nice sticky 235/45/17 Toyo T1-S tires, firm suspension, and a Quaife ATB limited slip differential.

Trust me. Turbo-lag is your friend.

Take that all as constructive criticism please. I fully understand the desire to be different and approach a problem from all angles. But one also has to consider what is the best for a given application, and in this case, I see no reason not to slap on a turbo. Small four-cylinder engines on FWD platforms just SCREAM for it!

I know it says I'm a "newbie" but trust me, I'm not talking completely out of a vacuum.

 

That's great, but it's not a street car. There aren't many streetable 2.0-ish cars that are NA and fast. I certainly don't see any in San Diego roaming around.

In contrast, there's a lot of fast 2.0-ish cars that have turbos hung on 'em...

 

Street and 10 seconds... definately not... But even low 13's would be enough to make someone very happy!

 

Yeah, but getting low 13's by NA is going to cost more than low 13's by FI, don't you think? At the very least, let's say you build one motor so that the car it's in is in the low 13's and you turbocharge another motor so that the car it's in is in the low 13's.

(Note that the motor never had to come out of the engine bay for the turbocharger.)

Now let's say you want to put the cars into the 12's. The NA car has its engine ripped out to install higher compression pistons. It gets fatter injectors, a bit more port work, a better valve job, the crank is sent off for a bunch of work, etc.

The turbo motor gets a bigger turbo hung off it along with a better intercooler and fatter injectors.

Which was cheaper?

 

Great info.

First, I think it all depends on your HP goal. If you want to shoot under 200 HP flywheel, NA is the most cost effective. If you want to shoot 300 HP flywheel, force-fed is more cost-effective.

Instead of stages, I go by classes of Mods.

Mild = simple bolt-ons

Moderate = upgrading some parts internal/external parts. downtime isn't more than a week.

Heavily = gutting the engine. downtime can last up to 6 months!

wild = replacing everything!!!!

This formula is much simple. For examples, replacing a cam will be in the moderate class while knife-edging will be considered in the heavily mod class. There is no need to put specific parts to what stages.

 

Also, if you dome the pistonhead, make sure it clears the cyl head. Also, you can dish the pistonhead to lower CR like I have seen with 300ZXT by Steve Millen.

 

Hello, you car isn't meant to run boost, you can't jsut expect, "Oh I'll buy a turbo and it'll al be cheap.." Bad misconception. Do you know if you get a turbo you're going to need something capable of tuning w/ the different stages of boost, this throws out a simple S-AFC for the car. Regardless of which turbo, your alway going to need to upgrade your fuel systems, so again, both cars are at a dead even. Also, which motor will last you longer, the one w/ the stronger internals and no forced induction, or the turbo w/ intercooler and injectors?? Hmmmmmmmmm, thats easy-----N/A duuh!

Sorry it took long for a response to someone elses posts..... doesnt regard of the last 1 posts.

 

Granted it will take a lot of modifications, but it's perfectly doable. The biggest concern in my eyes is the internals. They are definitely not made to handle high stress loads and, as we've seen from Rob's "piston on nos" pic, detonation can easily cause serious problems. Having the tuning knowledge, doing the proper research to reach your goal, and having the money to back that goal up and to it properly seem to be the key ingredients to a successfully tuned car in my eyes.

Whether you go NA and spend a fortune squeezing every last bit out of the engine or go forced induction it seems more important to me to have done the proper research, done everything correctly and fully (rather than half-assed and 1 mod at a time past bolt-ons i.e. internal engine work.) and knowing the worst case cost scenario. Maybe I'm being short sighted?

 

many thing turbo is the way to go mainly because its bout 4 grand and your done, you now have a car that has at least 200hp i on the other hand would be willing to spend more and get to 200 on a NA setup. my boost will be constant and my engine will last way longer than that of the turbo

thanks for all the piston info, not sure i understand all of it but i have some idea now

i couldn't agree more. especially with the "rather than half-assed and 1 mod at a time past bolt-ons" that is why i would do most of it in stages. in the end (when i am like 40 lol) this will be probably the fastest 4g94 that is compleatly NA

earlier i wasn't saying that i plan on ever putting a turbo in my car i was just saying that if i did many of the mods that benefit turbo's benefit NA cars also. many, not all