The Future of Intake Technology?
Evolved Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 529
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well, thier site is now being updated, and hopefully it wont take more then a few days. at least someone is doing something with the site cause they changed the date on it, lol 
this is where everyone needs to cross their fingers...
this is where everyone needs to cross their fingers...
Evolved Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
lol, true, i do the same. that would kick *** to turbo charge that thing. that 25% increase or whatever would put us up to like 150 hp. or about 130 at the wheels. probably like 135-140 with intake and exhaust and stuff.
Evolving Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 144
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From: Goldcoast, Australia
after reading some of their other projects (the 4 dive tanks in the back of a corvette thats supposedly a hydrogen powered vehicle) I have my doubts 
But lets hope we're all wrong and we get near forced induction performance from a $295 bolton *grin*
But lets hope we're all wrong and we get near forced induction performance from a $295 bolton *grin*
Possibly where they are getting the gains from in this case is that engines typically do not fully combust all of the available elements in the air and fuel mixture. For example, it is theoretically possible to "burn" CO2 or any compound if you can get it to release energy when it is seperated in to different molecules or recombined in another manner. It's been a long time since I kept up with my chemistry... but I can tell you a couple of other things that make me question this..
UW-Madison has the largest and most sophisticated internal combustion engine research lab in the U.S. and is funded by General Motors and minor funding from others... they use no such kind of technology in their attempts to improve efficiency and output.
As someone who has patent paperwork filed and headed toward patent pending... it is completely bogus that they are waiting on the patent. You can sell the technology immediately as long as you have begun proceedings toward a patent. You must file for a patent within 1 year of release to public domain (in other words within one year of publicly acknowledging the technology or beginning sales) and you have no concern once the paperwork is filed. I have something called a provisional patent which is an even lesser form and gives you additional protection and so forth.
Because 03 is so unstable, it will likely predetonate the moment it enters the chambers because of the residual heat, so if it is injected at the exact moment of the normal detonation, then it could possibly provide gains.
Additionally, high purity forms of oxygen like 03 will do a great job of oxidizing things... aka your cylinder heads, spark plugs etc... so in other words.. lots of rusting and pitting.. since the rust will get chewed up with the workings of the engine.. it'll just pit.. and abrade... and well suck for you. If you want to inject chemicals in to your car to go faster... stay with what has been done for years NOS... but even that is pretty hard on the engine too!
UW-Madison has the largest and most sophisticated internal combustion engine research lab in the U.S. and is funded by General Motors and minor funding from others... they use no such kind of technology in their attempts to improve efficiency and output.
As someone who has patent paperwork filed and headed toward patent pending... it is completely bogus that they are waiting on the patent. You can sell the technology immediately as long as you have begun proceedings toward a patent. You must file for a patent within 1 year of release to public domain (in other words within one year of publicly acknowledging the technology or beginning sales) and you have no concern once the paperwork is filed. I have something called a provisional patent which is an even lesser form and gives you additional protection and so forth.
Because 03 is so unstable, it will likely predetonate the moment it enters the chambers because of the residual heat, so if it is injected at the exact moment of the normal detonation, then it could possibly provide gains.
Additionally, high purity forms of oxygen like 03 will do a great job of oxidizing things... aka your cylinder heads, spark plugs etc... so in other words.. lots of rusting and pitting.. since the rust will get chewed up with the workings of the engine.. it'll just pit.. and abrade... and well suck for you. If you want to inject chemicals in to your car to go faster... stay with what has been done for years NOS... but even that is pretty hard on the engine too!
by the way...I'm really excited for this thing coming. I'll probably order it the day it is released, and I don't care what anybody thinks 
muahahahahaha!
Too bad we have to wait till January, but you guys can expect a full and thorough review from me once I get it.
And I see what you mean by oxidizing now...you meant outside the engine...haha
But I don't have to worry too much because I live in the dryest state in the country...Arizona.
muahahahahaha!Too bad we have to wait till January, but you guys can expect a full and thorough review from me once I get it.
And I see what you mean by oxidizing now...you meant outside the engine...haha
But I don't have to worry too much because I live in the dryest state in the country...Arizona.
I'm not aware of any research center here employing 50,000 people on 3 days of the week.. but either way... Ethanol is whole different animal than 03 injection. I don't claim to understand the whole chemistry and physics of it all... Ethanol is a really common additive used to improve the clean burning of the gasoline. As far as I know it doesn't give any additional boost or improvement over non ethanol gasoline. Additionally, it is usually a 10% additive... I'd be curious as to how much percent of the air is 03 with this device.
I wasn't questioning that there is a lot of engine research and additive research out there, what I was questioning is why of all the displays of the research and things going on here on engines that I've never seen anything remotely close to the 03. I walk past the engine research center every day going to class and past some of the labs even just this morning.
Someone else in this thread said that the company is reputable... so if they are... well then I am at least curious about it... because hell if it is legit then I'll sign right up. But the physics and chemistry don't seem super convincing, and the whole too good to be true end of things as well.
Clarifying some of my other post... rusting can occur without water... Water just accelerates it for some reason i don't remember. But things will just oxidize happily on their own. But thinking about it more... the rapid use of the oxygen molecules will probably protect your engine to some extent any way.. and the rusting would probably be pretty minor... maybe in the intake manifold itself.... but the engine probably would be ok.
I also did notice they have a provisional patent on it as well... and it looked to me like they were ready to sell it already.
I do still have some concern that any residual fuels or whatever in the chamber may predetonate with the elevated temperatures and the more unstable oxygen components.
I plan on emailing one of my thermo professors and see if he can shed some light for us... if he thinks its good (he also works in the engine research facilities) then hell time to start saving 300 bucks.
Never hurts to be cautious and skeptical though!
I wasn't questioning that there is a lot of engine research and additive research out there, what I was questioning is why of all the displays of the research and things going on here on engines that I've never seen anything remotely close to the 03. I walk past the engine research center every day going to class and past some of the labs even just this morning.
Someone else in this thread said that the company is reputable... so if they are... well then I am at least curious about it... because hell if it is legit then I'll sign right up. But the physics and chemistry don't seem super convincing, and the whole too good to be true end of things as well.
Clarifying some of my other post... rusting can occur without water... Water just accelerates it for some reason i don't remember. But things will just oxidize happily on their own. But thinking about it more... the rapid use of the oxygen molecules will probably protect your engine to some extent any way.. and the rusting would probably be pretty minor... maybe in the intake manifold itself.... but the engine probably would be ok.
I also did notice they have a provisional patent on it as well... and it looked to me like they were ready to sell it already.
I do still have some concern that any residual fuels or whatever in the chamber may predetonate with the elevated temperatures and the more unstable oxygen components.
I plan on emailing one of my thermo professors and see if he can shed some light for us... if he thinks its good (he also works in the engine research facilities) then hell time to start saving 300 bucks
. Never hurts to be cautious and skeptical though!
Got word back from my professor who works for the engine research center. I'll save you guys the paraphrasing and I'll let you just read what he wrote:
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
This is the first I've heard of using ozone in an IC engine. As you might
expect, I'm pretty skeptical. In a modern SI (spark ignited) engine,
fueling is affected by the closed-loop control (feedback from oxygen
sensor) so that the engine runs at or very near stoichiometric all the
time. Adding more oxygen for a fixed fuel load will not produce more power.
The power comes from reaction of the fuel. If you can add more fuel and get
it all to react completely, then you can get more power (that's what
superchargers and turbocharger do).
I don't see how adding ozone to the intake will produce more power unless
you add more fuel as well. It is possible that the ozone added appears at
the oxygen sensor as excess oxygen so the engine ECM will respond with a
larger fuel load on the next cycle. It is not clear what vintage and
emission control level of engine has been tested.
When we think of power, we think of it normalized for a fixed fuel load. If
you change the fuel load and completely combust, you will get more power.
Frequently with these kinds of devices, other changes have been made to an
engine, either intentionally or inadvertently. For example, some air intake
filters boast significant performance improvements. As I understand it,
these foam filters do not filter the smallest particles as well as
old-fashioned paper filters, so the pressure drop across the filter is
lower for the foam filter so it does indeed flow more air. The real reason
it flows more air is it doesn't filter as well. Good trade-off? you decide
how long you want your engine to run.
I would be interested in some results for this device in controlled
experiments by and independent lab. That would be more illuminating than
the claims made in the web-site.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
So there you have it... Unless the sensor is tricked into a larger fuel dump, then this device isn't too likely to generate larger horsepower gains. I wouldn't be surprised if they were testing this on carbureted (sp) engines, as there I wouldn't have any doubt that there is fuel not burning properly!
Later.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
This is the first I've heard of using ozone in an IC engine. As you might
expect, I'm pretty skeptical. In a modern SI (spark ignited) engine,
fueling is affected by the closed-loop control (feedback from oxygen
sensor) so that the engine runs at or very near stoichiometric all the
time. Adding more oxygen for a fixed fuel load will not produce more power.
The power comes from reaction of the fuel. If you can add more fuel and get
it all to react completely, then you can get more power (that's what
superchargers and turbocharger do).
I don't see how adding ozone to the intake will produce more power unless
you add more fuel as well. It is possible that the ozone added appears at
the oxygen sensor as excess oxygen so the engine ECM will respond with a
larger fuel load on the next cycle. It is not clear what vintage and
emission control level of engine has been tested.
When we think of power, we think of it normalized for a fixed fuel load. If
you change the fuel load and completely combust, you will get more power.
Frequently with these kinds of devices, other changes have been made to an
engine, either intentionally or inadvertently. For example, some air intake
filters boast significant performance improvements. As I understand it,
these foam filters do not filter the smallest particles as well as
old-fashioned paper filters, so the pressure drop across the filter is
lower for the foam filter so it does indeed flow more air. The real reason
it flows more air is it doesn't filter as well. Good trade-off? you decide
how long you want your engine to run.
I would be interested in some results for this device in controlled
experiments by and independent lab. That would be more illuminating than
the claims made in the web-site.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
So there you have it... Unless the sensor is tricked into a larger fuel dump, then this device isn't too likely to generate larger horsepower gains. I wouldn't be surprised if they were testing this on carbureted (sp) engines, as there I wouldn't have any doubt that there is fuel not burning properly!
Later.