View Poll Results: Dual Exhaust vs. Single
Single Pipe Aftermarket Muffler
43
40.57%
Dual Exhaust
59
55.66%
Stock is the best thing in the world!!!!
4
3.77%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll
~~~ Project Dark Horse - 08 Dual Exhaust
Nov 15, 2007, 09:48 AM
#47
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update:
Exhaust being installed today so i will charge my camera but i think it might be late before i get home. and now the sun sets at like 5 or 6. if not tonight i will post pics tomorrow or so.
Exhaust being installed today so i will charge my camera but i think it might be late before i get home. and now the sun sets at like 5 or 6. if not tonight i will post pics tomorrow or so.
Nov 15, 2007, 09:57 AM
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congrats man. i realize how choked-up this damn thing is with our stock exhaust-system. This will be my next upgrade for sure. Congrats again. and im looking forward to the pics 
Nov 16, 2007, 03:08 AM
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Update after the install. Well i must say, my friend Lynks that just left for Japan recently was right on the money in terms of understanding the plumbing of pipe diamiter, exhaust flow, and back pressure.
I admit he was talking over my head 2 weeks ago when he was telling me the bonuses, the trade offs ad the bottom line, but he did tell me what would happen right off the bat when i first start the car up.
first thing he said look at one of the pipes and check the color of the smoke, tells you if there is something wrong on a serious level. light blue smooke off initial start up was a good thumbs up sign. me telling him this all via the phone while he was at the airport.
Other instructions were not to reset the battery. This would allow us to see and feel the car on an unadjusted level. before the care ECU attempts to adjust for the different running conditions.
Next thing to see is to monitor the RPM needle, to expect it to hop up and down 200 RPM or so, (example as if there was a heavy audio system pumping against the alternator)
This was observed as we took the car out of the shop put it in drive and let the car move on its own, observe the car continue to lug with the RPM needle hoping up and down 200 rpms up and down, tiny spikes. you can also feel it in the car, tiny pulls. After 2 minutes the tugging stopped, the needle settled at 800 RPM at idle in drive. (condition normal)
Past the first test. he alerted me that if it doesnt stop with the idle hoping then tuning may be required or at least the manual raising of the cars standard idle maybe needed.
Second, since we were not replacing the majority of the piping there shouldnt be enough backpressure drop to constitute any adverse reactions by the exhaust / intake valves in the engine. You might refer to back fires during accelerations or letting off gas or idle. And any gurgle or pops or any other sounds that you wouldnt expect from an idle stock or mild performance car
Second test passed, not sounds at all. not that it was expected with such a small change but still, some cars are fussy (he's seen at least a few situations of cars just not taking a dual muffler).
Now the fun part, letting it rip and opening up on that bad boy all i can say is, it reminds me of the borla in my other car but different. Ton sounds controlled, balanced, not to loud, but its definately heard. External sound speaking, on a scale of 1 to 10. 10 being the massive sound of a V8 tuned pickup and 1 being the sound of a stock quiet car. I would say that our stock unmodified exhaust being a 3 or 4. I would say this exhaust would be a 6.5. Its definately a step up. I am sorry i havent had a chance to compare it to a RRM magnaflow exhaust but at the next car meet, I will definately give it a show down sound test
Inside the car impressions. Hmmmm driving the car normally there are a few things I notice. 1) is the flow sound at idle is different. Now althou its mostly only a rear section upgrade dual exhaust, the tone sound at dead idle can be heard but its very faint. but its definately there vs. not there with the surpressed stock muffler. 2) normal acceration (for those with a Short Ram Intake) generally you will hear the muffler come in at the same time as your intake at about 2000rpm and up when it comes to a distinct audio sound. But when you let go of the gas and and the car begins to slow and the rpm falls from 3000 to 2000, you lose the sound of your intake but you still do hear your exhaust down to about 1500. That was different. I am sure to the average person its not significant but to obsessive freaks such as my self, its intersting
3. The car drives a bit different. but will take a few more weeks of driving to confirm the feeling of the car. But yes the car some what feels heavier below 2000 RPM. for those with the CVT you will know what i am talking about, when your accelerating very lightly andyou feel like you gotta stomp even harder to get that damn engine to go above 2000RPM and haul ***. The car feels heavy but instead of getting stuck below 2000Rpm the car seems to accelerate above 2000RPM on its own without having to push down harder. what i said sounds a bit contradictory but its hard to explain. I will explain the results later when i update the GTECH thread, the dual exhaust was installed on a Manual 5Sp as well. so there are 2 of us now. But the GTECH SS version showed a drop in the low end but gain in the mid to high in terms of TQ, the HP wasnt consistant but we only had time to do 3 pulls, and we admit we purposely brought the car to near stalls so we could get readings in the ultra low RPM level.
All in all it looks good
Last comments on performance. Well there are a few techinical problems. The install is not exactly the easiest setup to do. and required a cut in the pipe about a foot in. if you look under the car, the cut is just before the pipe makes its last bend towards the stock muffler. We elminated the last bend and used the direction of that pipe to get a good line up into our muffler inlet. The final bend of the inlet into the muffler curve is seemless and maintains the flow up until the muffler chamber. As the exhaust is dumped into there, this is where the flow is opened up and the pressure drops. I should confirm but the tips should be 2" which is a drop down from 2 1/4 of the stock pipes but a smaller outlet piping for the muffler would have preserved back pressure better. Keeping the larger size leaves options open for tuning to close the gap in terms of squeezing performance out of the new setup.
Now getting to the looks. to me it looks blood sexy up close standing next to the car, i ensure the exhaust went as far as the lower end of the bumper. just beyond where the stock exhaust tip stopped. Tips are 3" so they stand out and its all stainless steel so you can see the shinny polish of the tips, and its definately seen on both sides on the side profile.
Looking at the car from far away, due to the position of the muffler canister being off center, it kinda throws off the look But this is because A) if you look at your stock car long enough, anything else will just look odd. B) the canister is super shinny and the pipes are too all the way up to the tips. so the idea is to pain them all black. This will divert your eyes away from stareing at the piping and focusing more on the exhaust tips.
second, I may not have to paint anything, if all goes well i will be introducing a rear lip that will add an inch and A) cover up the canister more and B) provide a second cutout for the new tip to make it look like it was factory.
until i resolve it either way it will still give the impression that it is a hair out of place or off center, even though its been measured to be pretty accuate to be in place.
PICS PICS PICS, sorry guys it was late and couldnt get home fast enough, did all of this in east and Toronto and the frigging 401 highway was F*#$# going west. stupid. my camera phone flash sucks and didnt do a good job, and my camera i used to take the pictures before was dead. If it doesnt snow tomorrow I will be able to take the pics, if it does you will have to wait till Saturday. but i do promise to work fast to get them in to you. you hungry wolves you!!! :P cheers.
I admit he was talking over my head 2 weeks ago when he was telling me the bonuses, the trade offs ad the bottom line, but he did tell me what would happen right off the bat when i first start the car up.
first thing he said look at one of the pipes and check the color of the smoke, tells you if there is something wrong on a serious level. light blue smooke off initial start up was a good thumbs up sign. me telling him this all via the phone while he was at the airport.
Other instructions were not to reset the battery. This would allow us to see and feel the car on an unadjusted level. before the care ECU attempts to adjust for the different running conditions.
Next thing to see is to monitor the RPM needle, to expect it to hop up and down 200 RPM or so, (example as if there was a heavy audio system pumping against the alternator)
This was observed as we took the car out of the shop put it in drive and let the car move on its own, observe the car continue to lug with the RPM needle hoping up and down 200 rpms up and down, tiny spikes. you can also feel it in the car, tiny pulls. After 2 minutes the tugging stopped, the needle settled at 800 RPM at idle in drive. (condition normal)
Past the first test. he alerted me that if it doesnt stop with the idle hoping then tuning may be required or at least the manual raising of the cars standard idle maybe needed.
Second, since we were not replacing the majority of the piping there shouldnt be enough backpressure drop to constitute any adverse reactions by the exhaust / intake valves in the engine. You might refer to back fires during accelerations or letting off gas or idle. And any gurgle or pops or any other sounds that you wouldnt expect from an idle stock or mild performance car
Second test passed, not sounds at all. not that it was expected with such a small change but still, some cars are fussy (he's seen at least a few situations of cars just not taking a dual muffler).
Now the fun part, letting it rip
and opening up on that bad boy all i can say is, it reminds me of the borla in my other car but different. Ton sounds controlled, balanced, not to loud, but its definately heard. External sound speaking, on a scale of 1 to 10. 10 being the massive sound of a V8 tuned pickup and 1 being the sound of a stock quiet car. I would say that our stock unmodified exhaust being a 3 or 4. I would say this exhaust would be a 6.5. Its definately a step up. I am sorry i havent had a chance to compare it to a RRM magnaflow exhaust but at the next car meet, I will definately give it a show down sound test Inside the car impressions. Hmmmm driving the car normally there are a few things I notice. 1) is the flow sound at idle is different. Now althou its mostly only a rear section upgrade dual exhaust, the tone sound at dead idle can be heard but its very faint. but its definately there vs. not there with the surpressed stock muffler. 2) normal acceration (for those with a Short Ram Intake) generally you will hear the muffler come in at the same time as your intake at about 2000rpm and up when it comes to a distinct audio sound. But when you let go of the gas and and the car begins to slow and the rpm falls from 3000 to 2000, you lose the sound of your intake but you still do hear your exhaust down to about 1500. That was different. I am sure to the average person its not significant but to obsessive freaks such as my self, its intersting
3. The car drives a bit different. but will take a few more weeks of driving to confirm the feeling of the car. But yes the car some what feels heavier below 2000 RPM. for those with the CVT you will know what i am talking about, when your accelerating very lightly andyou feel like you gotta stomp even harder to get that damn engine to go above 2000RPM and haul ***. The car feels heavy but instead of getting stuck below 2000Rpm the car seems to accelerate above 2000RPM on its own without having to push down harder. what i said sounds a bit contradictory but its hard to explain. I will explain the results later when i update the GTECH thread, the dual exhaust was installed on a Manual 5Sp as well. so there are 2 of us now. But the GTECH SS version showed a drop in the low end but gain in the mid to high in terms of TQ, the HP wasnt consistant but we only had time to do 3 pulls, and we admit we purposely brought the car to near stalls so we could get readings in the ultra low RPM level.
All in all it looks good
Last comments on performance. Well there are a few techinical problems. The install is not exactly the easiest setup to do. and required a cut in the pipe about a foot in. if you look under the car, the cut is just before the pipe makes its last bend towards the stock muffler. We elminated the last bend and used the direction of that pipe to get a good line up into our muffler inlet. The final bend of the inlet into the muffler curve is seemless and maintains the flow up until the muffler chamber. As the exhaust is dumped into there, this is where the flow is opened up and the pressure drops. I should confirm but the tips should be 2" which is a drop down from 2 1/4 of the stock pipes but a smaller outlet piping for the muffler would have preserved back pressure better. Keeping the larger size leaves options open for tuning to close the gap in terms of squeezing performance out of the new setup.
Now getting to the looks. to me it looks blood sexy up close standing next to the car, i ensure the exhaust went as far as the lower end of the bumper. just beyond where the stock exhaust tip stopped. Tips are 3" so they stand out and its all stainless steel so you can see the shinny polish of the tips, and its definately seen on both sides on the side profile.
Looking at the car from far away, due to the position of the muffler canister being off center, it kinda throws off the look But this is because A) if you look at your stock car long enough, anything else will just look odd. B) the canister is super shinny and the pipes are too all the way up to the tips. so the idea is to pain them all black. This will divert your eyes away from stareing at the piping and focusing more on the exhaust tips.
second, I may not have to paint anything, if all goes well i will be introducing a rear lip that will add an inch and A) cover up the canister more and B) provide a second cutout for the new tip to make it look like it was factory.
until i resolve it either way it will still give the impression that it is a hair out of place or off center, even though its been measured to be pretty accuate to be in place.
PICS PICS PICS, sorry guys it was late and couldnt get home fast enough, did all of this in east and Toronto and the frigging 401 highway was F*#$# going west. stupid. my camera phone flash sucks and didnt do a good job, and my camera i used to take the pictures before was dead. If it doesnt snow tomorrow I will be able to take the pics, if it does you will have to wait till Saturday. but i do promise to work fast to get them in to you. you hungry wolves you!!! :P cheers.
Nov 16, 2007, 03:41 AM
#50
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you can see what i mean from this pic from last month of the exhaust lined up with the rear of the car, how shinny the exhaust canister is. I may opt to paint it with a thermal high temp paint.
Nov 16, 2007, 04:33 AM
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althou i am only a day into, i have been advancing my reading on MIVEC, i have scowered the net a bit but to make the points simple, Wiki's points get the ideas across.
~~~~~
Under most conditions, to ensure highest fuel efficiency, valve overlap is increased to reduce pumping losses. The exhaust valve opening timing is retarded for higher expansion ratio, enhancing fuel economy.
When maximum power is demanded (high engine speed and load), intake valve closing timing is retarded to synchronize the intake air pulsations for larger air volume.
Under low-speed, high load, MIVEC ensures optimal torque delivery with the intake valve closing timing advanced to ensure sufficient air volume. At the same time, the exhaust valve opening timing is retarded to provide a higher expansion ratio and improved efficiency.
At idle, valve overlap is eliminated to stabilize combustion.
~~~~~
Reading about my experience with the idle, i would says Mivecs ability to adjust for the difference in flow and of course that flows effect on combustion is strictly amazing.
If anyone else recreates this , they should notice the same effect.
~~~~~
Under most conditions, to ensure highest fuel efficiency, valve overlap is increased to reduce pumping losses. The exhaust valve opening timing is retarded for higher expansion ratio, enhancing fuel economy.
When maximum power is demanded (high engine speed and load), intake valve closing timing is retarded to synchronize the intake air pulsations for larger air volume.
Under low-speed, high load, MIVEC ensures optimal torque delivery with the intake valve closing timing advanced to ensure sufficient air volume. At the same time, the exhaust valve opening timing is retarded to provide a higher expansion ratio and improved efficiency.
At idle, valve overlap is eliminated to stabilize combustion.
~~~~~
Reading about my experience with the idle, i would says Mivecs ability to adjust for the difference in flow and of course that flows effect on combustion is strictly amazing.
If anyone else recreates this , they should notice the same effect.
Nov 16, 2007, 08:31 PM
#56
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And now to pass the audio test. And yes you might want to turn on your subwoofer for this one
VIDEO CLIP of DUAL EXHAUST startup
I start the car twice cause me and my girlfriend were talking, if you are listning to what we are saying try not to laugh. its something like
GF: "ok babe you want me to hold this camera," wait babe what about the fumes"
EVOSOUL: It wont kill you!
blah bblah blah..
Anyways I started the car the second time, and give it two quick tugs.
i applogize, I was cold and wanted to go upload this and hit the sack.
Take more vids later
VIDEO CLIP of DUAL EXHAUST startup
I start the car twice cause me and my girlfriend were talking, if you are listning to what we are saying try not to laugh. its something like
GF: "ok babe you want me to hold this camera," wait babe what about the fumes"
EVOSOUL: It wont kill you!
blah bblah blah..
Anyways I started the car the second time, and give it two quick tugs.
i applogize, I was cold and wanted to go upload this and hit the sack.
Take more vids later
Last edited by evo_soul; Nov 19, 2007 at 12:20 PM.
Nov 16, 2007, 08:57 PM
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maybe this has already been covered, but are you gonna cut ahole for the second pipe so it matches the first?
how about move the pipes up so they are actually in the holes? you said something about a lip?
how about move the pipes up so they are actually in the holes? you said something about a lip?
i have to admit i was laughing pretty hard lol for her comments lol
Nov 16, 2007, 09:29 PM
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the problem was is that the exhaust tips are not straight back but slightly angled inward, so when we tried to fit it and get it to point right, it wouldnt, so we made sure the right one was in place as best as possible and now we will just bend the left pipe. After that is perfect, we will consider either moving forward with the rear lip or making a cut. On a black car its kinda hard to notice. Every other color it will stick out hands down.