Hey guys,

This lancer 2008 GTS was my first manual car.
Im loving manual at the moment and want to keep learning more and improving my driving skill.


Few questions for you manual experts out there lol.

Engine breaking.
I find downshifting to be difficult and always it jerks the car. I assume this is normal becuase you are revving the car higher than before? Is this technique recommended for saving your brakes?

Clutch breaking,
When you are clutched in and you break you have almost no resistance so it should put more stress on the brakes if u consistently break from neutral when compared to Automatic tranmission? So inactual fact you will wear out your brakes faster than AUTO when you drive like this?

And what about the combination of the two, downshifting and braking. Since i do realize it is a safety concern if you are slowing down and you dont actuate the brakes meaning your brake lights dont turn on. This is also dangerous becuase drivers dont "see" you slowing down. So the combination of downshifting and tapping of brakes, is that a recommended technique?

Basically. MT drivers, how do you brake??

Question 2.

for slow stop and go traffic, auto drivers maybe drift 5 feet and stop again, even in stop signs..

How do you engage?. I engage my clutch and the car starts moving. Before i totally let go of my clutch i have to clutch in again because i need to stop. Is this considered riding the clutch? And is it bad?. Or is this normal practice under these specific circumstances?

Question 3.

Reverse is such a (@#. I normally ride the clutch in reverse because i only need to go a little bit before i engage and change to 1st gear. Is this also normal?

 

Downshifting is a learned practice, but it should be utilized to the best of your abilities. You can stop much faster using both brakes and clutch, and also using the engine to slow you down will drastically reduce brake wear. UNLESS you're downshifting for power, there is no need to throttle up to next gear's RPMs. The synchros and counterweights will do the work for you. Just depress, switch gears and slowly let out the clutch. Enough practice and you'll be downshifting just as well as you upshift.

Yes, braking with no engine help will wear the pads quickly; quicker than in an automatic transmission.

Q2: When in stop and go, this is what I do. I let the vehicle ahead get a few feet in front of me, then lightly using the throttle get moving just enough to disengage in 1st gear. Rest my foot on the dead pedal, and let the transmission deal with the speed. Not accelerating to catch up to the next car. This way, while they're stopping and starting, I'm moving soundly at say 2 mph the entire time. If it's needed, I'll depress the clutch to stop but only if I absolutely have to stop. I'd rather just stay rolling, no matter how slow I may roll.

Riding the clutch is driving with your foot resting on the pedal. It may not be visibly actuating the clutch, but any pressure actually releases it slightly. A clutch is pretty much a disc with brake material on both sides. This material wears down and then causes clutch failure. The best practice is to make your shifts as smooth and quick as possible without jumping the tranny and keeping your foot off that pedal as much as possible.

Q3: Reverse is always fun in a stick. It's touchy and sometimes hard to get used to. Just bear with it, and soon enough you'll have the practice down. In order to reduce clutch use when reversing (or forwarding in 1st, such as stop/go instances as stated above) use as little throttle as possible to keep the engine/tranny rotational speed down. This'll allow you to get the clutch all the way out and reduce wear.

 

.... Everything he said basically... But also not after breaking in a manual it will get easier to switch gears. Some newer vehicals the clutch can be very touchy. Just keep driving and you will get it

 

Engine breaking aka exhaust breaking is alot of what I do in my daily drives to and from work. Unlike most everyone else, I keep a relative distance between me and the car in front. Maybe because I have no anit-lock, '92 stock brakes, concrete pads, and 13" skinnies. LOL (Civic BTW)

And about down shifting...say at a stop light. I think of it like this, I'd rather have to replace the brakes more often than the clutch. So I might down shift, only if I see that we won't come to a complete stop. But anything under 25-30ish, I'll exhaust brake it and hit the brakes smoothly with it in neutral.

Having difficulty with getting into reverse? Every 5-sp I've had, I've had to learn to roll the car ever so slightly in first...and while it rolls forward or back lightly throw it into reverse until it goes in. Then I'm off. I forget the term for the specific gearing assembly the Honda guys call our reverse gear, but this mention makes it sooooo simple!

Best of luck on the new ride! You'll be happy with the 5-sp for sure!

 

an easy way to avoid the jerking motion is to rev-match. basically what you do is blip the throttle then downshift, if done correctly (not much time to do it) the rpm that you "blipped" to should match the rpm it will be in the lower gear so the transiiton should be smooth. I do this in my track car so that it dosnt upset the cars balance when entering a turn

 

Thanks for the tips guys, it helps,


but isnt engine breaking going to wear out your clutch faster also?

So if i partially engage and engage again in stop and go traffic thats wear.
if i engine break thats wear

basically anytime i change gears lol..

so what are the best ways to extend the life of your clutch and what are considered bad habits for driving manual transmission

 

Your clutch is going to wear no matter what you do, that's the "joy" of driving stick.

As for extending clutch life, it's all about smooth, quick shifts (not uber-fast) and making sure you use that pedal as little as necessary. The Focus I just sold had 192K on the odometer (2000 model year) and was still using the original clutch.

 

Engine breaking will not wear the clutch out faster. Just make sure you aren't riding the clutch while you do it.

Yeah, any time you change gears, you use the clutch. But don't be afraid to use it. I drove my 2002 Lancer for 55k miles with lots of engine breaking and rush-hour traffic and my clutch was still perfectly fine.

Bad habit - riding the clutch. Try to avoid sitting with the clutch in for a long time. So if you're sitting at a red light, you can keep it in 1st and wait for the green. If you're sitting in rush hour, just inch up and drop it back into neutral.
Also, make sure you shift and let off the clutch. Don't be holding the clutch down for 6 seconds as you accerlate into each gear. Just use the pedal to get the shifter from gear to gear and get back off it. You don't have to go fast, just don't be holding that pedal down all the time.

 

great. it looks like im doing it perfectly fine

thanks for the help.


i REALLY enjoying stick.

i can finally rev up to whatever i want lol..

so you guys try any of the advanced tehcniques like double clutching, heel and toe??

power shifting

ever try shifting without the clutch lol.

 

Double clutching - Not very necessary any more. The synchros and counterweights do all the work for you. It however is a good skill and easy to learn. It can still come in handy during inclimate weather, where you need to really match RPMs with gear selection (like slowing down in snow/ice), or if you're really running a road race and need the extra little time for matchin during a downshift. You know, pushing your car to the limits. Same goes with heel and toe - can come in handy in extreme conditions, not necessary for regular everyday driving.

Learn more about shifting techniques here.

Shifting without the clutch? I try not to. But it's also another thing that may be good to have under your belt.

 

Shifting without the clutch = playing with fire. It's all fun and games until you rip the teeth off a gear...

Powershifting - go for it. It's the easiest thing possible. Just learn to shift fast so you don't blow the motor while picking the gear.

Double clutching = waste of time (IMO).

Heel/toe - I have bad hips, so I can't really get in a good position for this. Never really felt like I was missing anything by not doing it.

 

clutch wear... aslong as the clutch isnt slipping.. when it's full engaged the wear is minimal.. the wear is 99% when it's going in and out . when the clutch disc is matchingup/grabbing the flywheel

double clutching.. yeah.. it's a lost art now.. and basically nod needed .. unless you wanna know how to drive with blown syncro's

clutchless shifting... again a lost skill, and not needed unless you need to learn how to drive with your clutch stuck engaged (had that experience last summer in my datsun 620 truck heh)

heel toe.. if you drive agressively/race or in someplace that gets icey/snowy with kinda lax road cleanup.. very good skill to know... I have big feet so I can't properly heel toe.. I do something between heel toe and double clutch

if your having trouble with putting your trans in Reverse.. put it into 3rd first.. then down into reverse.

 

I recently bought a 2008 Lancer ES with a manual transmission. For the past ten years my daily driver was a 1986 Porsche 944. I frequently autocrossed the 944 and occasionally drove it on the track at Summit Point with Porsche Club. I sold the 944 in June with 245,000 miles. Over the 130,000+ miles that I drove the car I replaced the brake pads twice, and the pads currently on the car are plenty thick. I replaced the ORIGINAL clutch at 230,000 miles. I also own a 1999 Boxster.

That being said . . .

The MOTOR is for making the car GO. The BRAKES are for making the car STOP. I’ll go into two reasons to AVOID using the motor to stop the car (yes, I have a lot of spare time today).

1. Brakes are much cheaper than motors and transmissions. Brake pads are cheap and intentionally disposable. I could replace the brake pads on my 944 for less than $100 in parts and about an hour of my time. This is an easy do-it-yourself job (allow two or three hours the first time you do it). Repairing or replacing a motor or a transmission is likely to cost thousands of dollars. To put an additional burden on the motor and tranny in order to reduce wear on brake pads makes absolutely no sense!

2. Brakes are more than capable of stopping your car without any help from the motor. Some people seem to think that dropping the car into a low gear makes the car stop faster than the brakes alone, possibly useful in an emergency. THIS IS NOT TRUE! For any normal street car, the limiting factor in stopping the car is the friction between the tires and the road—not the friction between brake pads and rotors (or shoes and drums). This is clearly seen in a car without ABS. The brakes are perfectly capable of making the wheels stop turning. If that happens while the car is still moving, then the tires lose friction, resulting in a skid and possible loss of directional control. The point of ABS is to limit deceleration of the wheels and maintain static friction between the tires and road. Since the brakes are more than adequate to stop the wheels from turning, using the motor to stop the wheels from turning does not help anything.
Consider a car without ABS: In an emergency, the person applies the brakes just to the point before it starts to skid (this takes practice). If the person then dropped into a low gear sufficient to further slow the wheels from turning, the wheels would lock, the person would skid, braking distance would increase, and there would be risk of damage to the motor and/or transmission.
Consider a car with ABS: In an emergency, the person stomps on the brakes as hard as he can (this is what you should do with ABS). The ABS system allows the wheels to turn just enough to keep from locking. If the person also dropped into a low gear, the ABS would simply do the exact same thing it is already doing—allowing the wheels to turn enough to keep from locking. Dropping to the low gear does nothing to help the car stop, but again risks damage to the motor or tranny.
Why do so many people think dropping to a low gear can make the car stop faster than brakes alone? I assume it is because most people have never experienced the limits of what their brakes can do. Most have never really hit their brakes to the max, and if they did so in a non-ABS car, they probably just skidded. The lurch that comes from dropping a car into a low gear seems very dramatic, but it’s not stopping you any fast than what the brakes can do. The idea that the motor helps stop the car faster is a myth!

So, DO NOT USE YOUR MOTOR TO STOP YOUR CAR! Brake pads are cheap, and the motor won’t stop you any faster than the brakes alone.

When coming to a normal stop, put your tranny in neutral, keep your foot off the clutch, and use the brakes to come to a complete stop. Do NOT downshift. Keep your foot off the clutch and hand off the shifter until it is time to go. In an emergency (in a car with ABS and a manual transmission) step on the brake as hard as possible, keep both hands on the steering wheel, and step on the clutch pedal and keep it depressed until you come to a complete stop. The clutch thing is not necessary to stop the car, but it will keep you from stalling out when you stop.

There is one circumstance when you do want to use the motor to limit the speed of your car. Note here, I said “limit the speed,” not “stop”! This is when you are traveling down a long, steep incline. In such circumstances you want to drive down the hill in a low enough gear that you do not need to keep a foot on the brake to maintain a safe speed. Going down a long hill while using the brakes to maintain speed may likely overheat the brakes, boil your brake fluid, and lead to brake failure. However, while going down the hill in a low gear, if you do need to stop, then use the brakes!

While I’m on a roll, I’ll also say something about turning with a manual transmission car. When executing a turn (a real turn, not a sweeping curve) you generally want to do all of your braking and shifting before you start the turn. Suppose you are about to make a right-hand turn, and you figure you want to take the turn at about 20 MPH. Use your brakes to get the car down to 20 MPH before you start the turn, then execute your downshift (do not lurch the car!), then accelerate through the turn. The reason for this is to avoid braking and turning at the same time. Remember that what keeps you going in the direction you want to go is friction between your tires and the road. Let’s say that your tires give you a certain amount of friction to work with. Any change in velocity (recall from physics that velocity includes both speed and direction) will “use up” a portion of that friction. If you are turning (change in direction), then you are using some of your friction. If you add in the brakes (change in speed), then you will use up more friction. Under any normal conditions, you have plenty of friction to execute reasonable turns while braking at the same time. But, suppose you are in the middle of a turn, near your limit of friction, and you hit the brakes. That’s when you may use up your friction and enter a skid.

On the track, the general logic behind turns is “slow in and fast out.” Entering a straight, you want to be accelerating out of the turn. If you hit the brakes mid-turn, then you won’t have as much speed entering the straight. You also risk losing grip. By the way, braking also causes weight of the car to shift from the back wheels to the front wheels. Doing this mid-turn adds another factor that can cause you to lose control. If your rear wheels are already near their limit of grip, hitting the brakes reduces the weight on the rear wheels and thus reduces their friction. This may lead to oversteer (spin).

All of this talk leads into the idea of heel-toe shifting. On the track, to maximize the slow-in-fast-out effect, you want to brake hard before the turn and execute the downshift while braking. Fine, you have two feet, one for the clutch and one for the brake. However, you do not want the car to lurch while doing this (that unsettles the car). What you want to do is rev the engine so that the motor is spinning at a speed compatible with the lower gear (rev matching). Revving the engine at this time means simultaneously depressing all three pedals. With only two feet, this means twisting the right foot to stab the gas pedal while continuing to brake. So, you brake to slow the car, left foot on the clutch to shift, stab the gas with the right foot to rev the engine while keeping on the brake, shift, release the clutch, off the brake, onto the gas, and accelerate through the turn.

Notice that heel-toe shifting is done precisely to AVOID using the motor to lurch the car. When done properly, a passenger in the car should not notice any change in the motion of the car due to the shifting of the gears—only smooth braking followed by the acceleration. The car moves through the turn smoothly and with all the grip of the tires devoted to the turn.

All this brake-and-shift-before-turning and heel-toe stuff is generally unnecessary for street driving. However, the brake-and-shift-before-turning is a good habit to develop, and heel-toe driving can be practiced safely even on the street.

OK, I’m off my soapbox for now, except that I’ll say it one more time . . .

DO NOT USE YOUR MOTOR TO SLOW YOUR CAR! USE THE BRAKES!!!

 

felt like I was reading an article - everything was so clear and organized, ha ha.

Guess I'll stop using the motor to slow my car - thanks!

 

The only issue i have with what you said is the part about downshifting not helping you slow down. From my experience you dont loose traction because of the tires, it is usually because we are asking the cars traction to change to quickly. Everything should be smooth and controlled. Imagine pushing on someone (stolen from the clip below), if you push hard and fast you have the chance of pushing the person off balance and loosing their footing. If you use the same ammout of force over a longer period of time you are able to apply more force in the end as it is giving the tires (or person in the case of the analogy) to react.

Most reasons people need ABS is because they are forcing the tires or the car to react quicker than what they are able to (read snow and ice) if you do calm and controlled breaking (or acceleration) you are able to ask more of the tires. The other things I have learned are if you do all your breaking (I agree with the above poster on this) before the turn you are only asking the tires to turn.

For the sake of argument lets say that tires only have 100 unquantifiable number of grip. If you turn to the max you are using 100 units of grip to turn, if you turn 75% and break/accelerate 25% then you are using 75 units of grip of your tires to turn (see how this would mean you have to turn slower) and 25 units to accelerate. And again with whatever number you want. A car can only do so much with what it has, if you ask it to do turning and breaking you will either loose control of the car (loose traction) or you could have used more grip to turn the car (meaning you could have gone faster through the corner. While I am on about turning, next time you are in snow (if you have snow) try turning the steering wheel very fast (in an open parking lot so you dont hit the curb) and compare it to turning the steering wheel more controlled, I am willing to bet that you are able to turn on the second attemp and not the first. Again you need to allow your car the time to transition from one movement to another.

Friction is the amount of force exerted on a surface over a certain period of time, so in reality the friction co-efficient between the tires and the road doesnt change, but if you give yourself even half a second longer, you could push it back over the edge of traction. Also I believe that engine breaking does help because truckers seem to do it a lot and if it wasn't helping i am sure they would have given it up a long time ago.

The rest reads good though. Again remember this is opinion v opinion so we are more than likely both wrong.

See the top gear clip below for reference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWZmCGIWS6E