JRZ race shocks are coming!
Originally Posted by M5150
Don't forget to mention that my car is 400-500 lbs heavier than your car and dieters, and has 100 less HP at least 
I had lots of fun, hope you did too.
Regards,
Max Cudich
I had lots of fun, hope you did too.
Regards,
Max Cudich
Originally Posted by robi
Note the "less WHP"....Dieters is 3120...but he does have you on the HP...I had a great time too...Max I hope we will continue to work together to see how fast the JRZ set-up can become...(I think the limit will be time and desire more than when we reach the "perfect suspension" point for any given track)..Note the DMS set-up Dieter/Jacob/Norick/SRM-Snorre and I have been running has 100+ track days...AND WE SHARE DATA!!! and the NASA TT UNLIMITED class season Championship (and second place too) behind them..(OH and the TT A class championship win in a can I say it..STI???great job Russ) ..there is NO shortcut to track testing to optimize suspensions...PERIOD...The great news for this is that we (the Robispec/DMSistas) now have tested 95% baselines for all socal and south nevada tracks....all part of the service...what do the borg say? resistance is futile...lol...hope to see EVERYONE of you EVOistas AT THE TRACK!
And dieters car is 3120?! wow, didn't look it!
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Joined: Dec 2004
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Hmm lots to say, but I really do not mean any dis-respect to anyone or company on this forum. Sorry for getting worked up sometimes and coming off *** an &^^hole.
First, DMS has the lowest SHAFT TEMPERATURES ANYWHERE in the WORLD. Why ? Because we have achieved the adjustment range we need without needing an external resevoir to displace more oil / and keep dampening constant due to temperature increase. We do not run resevoirs because we do not need them. Not running a resevoir does not mean it is an inferior shock. You look at FACTORY only shocks (this means the public can not buy them) and a lot of the canisters are attached straight to the shock. This is not for cooling purposes as John said, it is for adjustment. Multiple adjustments (many companies can not even do two on one shaft) is not possible on one shaft, so this is a MAJOR reason for a resevoir as well.
On our 60mm applications, we have a resevoir ---- for a hydraulic bump stop !! No internal oil is displaced. We use the 60mm in conditions were the 50mm does heat up, say on Rally Acropolis ??? On a track car, the shock simply does not use enough stroke at high speed to generate these temps on our 50mm line.
Attached is a graph that you say is not possible .... the first one shows independant bump, the second one (needed a rebuild as shown by low speed compression being off !!, but rebound is right, as well as the rest of the curve). I can also dig up some more like this from other manufacturers ... oh, yeah, forgot to say .. the other company that does this, you will pay over 5000$ A CORNER not a set, a corner for this setup.
Progressive springs, or TENDER springs compliment a low speed dampening, not negate it. If your low speed spring is in compression, the high speed would negate this, not the low speed.
First, DMS has the lowest SHAFT TEMPERATURES ANYWHERE in the WORLD. Why ? Because we have achieved the adjustment range we need without needing an external resevoir to displace more oil / and keep dampening constant due to temperature increase. We do not run resevoirs because we do not need them. Not running a resevoir does not mean it is an inferior shock. You look at FACTORY only shocks (this means the public can not buy them) and a lot of the canisters are attached straight to the shock. This is not for cooling purposes as John said, it is for adjustment. Multiple adjustments (many companies can not even do two on one shaft) is not possible on one shaft, so this is a MAJOR reason for a resevoir as well.
On our 60mm applications, we have a resevoir ---- for a hydraulic bump stop !! No internal oil is displaced. We use the 60mm in conditions were the 50mm does heat up, say on Rally Acropolis ??? On a track car, the shock simply does not use enough stroke at high speed to generate these temps on our 50mm line.
Attached is a graph that you say is not possible .... the first one shows independant bump, the second one (needed a rebuild as shown by low speed compression being off !!, but rebound is right, as well as the rest of the curve). I can also dig up some more like this from other manufacturers ... oh, yeah, forgot to say .. the other company that does this, you will pay over 5000$ A CORNER not a set, a corner for this setup.
Progressive springs, or TENDER springs compliment a low speed dampening, not negate it. If your low speed spring is in compression, the high speed would negate this, not the low speed.
Mark, since you are just so impressed by your own stuff, I suggest you make a new thread telling everyone how great it is! O and I dont think we're building our cars for rally acropolis where no huge amounts of low speed damping are required as seen in your graphs, but those things sure do have some high speed, must be bumpy on the freeway.
From what I see on those graphs, which read in a different unit measure than the JRZ graph does (multiply force *9 and distance by .01) the DMS adjustment occurs in much higher piston velocities than the JRZ. The adjustment range is somewhere in the 15-20 IPS region, to me that sounds like a rally damper. There is no adjustment in the 0-3 IPS range which is where road-race cars operaute. Braking, turning, squating under acceleration, etc is all in 0-3 IPS and I don't think you'd hit 20 IPS unless you smashed a curb, landed a rally jump, ran through a pothole, or something of that nature, generally things found in rally, which you pointed out. These shocks seem to me to be designed for something like....... hmmmm..... rally acropolis, not laguna seca.
Also may I point out that there IS crosstalk in your graph in the 15-20 IPS section, where your adjustment is. May I also note that the crosstalk is more severe than demonstrated in the JRZ graph for compression.
Another thing to point out is I see no knee on the compression of your shock. If you run these huge progressive springs, and claim that low speed damping takes care of it I would like to see this low speed damping, which I dont.
Also let me point out that DMS dampers are made of all steel, very heavy, strong I imagine, good for rally where you risk bending things, but I believe we are all shopping for dampers to use on the circuit, so we prefer light aluminum. The JRZ uses all aluminum parts for the lightest weight possible. We care about unsprung weight, and wouldn't it be a shame that you paid $2000 for light weight wheels, $2500 for light weight racing brakes, all for it to be taken away by heavy rally dampers?
Sorry Mark, I'm just not a believer. 50mm pistons don't impress me.
"It's not the size of the ship, it's the motion of the ocean"
Regards,
Max Cudich
O and I dont think we're building our cars for rally acropolis where no huge amounts of low speed damping are required as seen in your graphs, but those things sure do have some high speed, must be bumpy on the freeway. From what I see on those graphs, which read in a different unit measure than the JRZ graph does (multiply force *9 and distance by .01) the DMS adjustment occurs in much higher piston velocities than the JRZ. The adjustment range is somewhere in the 15-20 IPS region, to me that sounds like a rally damper. There is no adjustment in the 0-3 IPS range which is where road-race cars operaute. Braking, turning, squating under acceleration, etc is all in 0-3 IPS and I don't think you'd hit 20 IPS unless you smashed a curb, landed a rally jump, ran through a pothole, or something of that nature, generally things found in rally, which you pointed out. These shocks seem to me to be designed for something like....... hmmmm..... rally acropolis, not laguna seca.
Also may I point out that there IS crosstalk in your graph in the 15-20 IPS section, where your adjustment is. May I also note that the crosstalk is more severe than demonstrated in the JRZ graph for compression.
Another thing to point out is I see no knee on the compression of your shock. If you run these huge progressive springs, and claim that low speed damping takes care of it I would like to see this low speed damping, which I dont.
Also let me point out that DMS dampers are made of all steel, very heavy, strong I imagine, good for rally where you risk bending things, but I believe we are all shopping for dampers to use on the circuit, so we prefer light aluminum. The JRZ uses all aluminum parts for the lightest weight possible. We care about unsprung weight, and wouldn't it be a shame that you paid $2000 for light weight wheels, $2500 for light weight racing brakes, all for it to be taken away by heavy rally dampers?
Sorry Mark, I'm just not a believer. 50mm pistons don't impress me.
"It's not the size of the ship, it's the motion of the ocean"
Regards,
Max Cudich
Originally Posted by DMS_Mark
Hmm lots to say, but I really do not mean any dis-respect to anyone or company on this forum. Sorry for getting worked up sometimes and coming off *** an &^^hole.
First, DMS has the lowest SHAFT TEMPERATURES ANYWHERE in the WORLD. Why ? Because we have achieved the adjustment range we need without needing an external resevoir to displace more oil / and keep dampening constant due to temperature increase. We do not run resevoirs because we do not need them. Not running a resevoir does not mean it is an inferior shock. You look at FACTORY only shocks (this means the public can not buy them) and a lot of the canisters are attached straight to the shock. This is not for cooling purposes as John said, it is for adjustment. Multiple adjustments (many companies can not even do two on one shaft) is not possible on one shaft, so this is a MAJOR reason for a resevoir as well.
On our 60mm applications, we have a resevoir ---- for a hydraulic bump stop !! No internal oil is displaced. We use the 60mm in conditions were the 50mm does heat up, say on Rally Acropolis ??? On a track car, the shock simply does not use enough stroke at high speed to generate these temps on our 50mm line.
Attached is a graph that you say is not possible .... the first one shows independant bump, the second one (needed a rebuild as shown by low speed compression being off !!, but rebound is right, as well as the rest of the curve). I can also dig up some more like this from other manufacturers ... oh, yeah, forgot to say .. the other company that does this, you will pay over 5000$ A CORNER not a set, a corner for this setup.
Progressive springs, or TENDER springs compliment a low speed dampening, not negate it. If your low speed spring is in compression, the high speed would negate this, not the low speed.
First, DMS has the lowest SHAFT TEMPERATURES ANYWHERE in the WORLD. Why ? Because we have achieved the adjustment range we need without needing an external resevoir to displace more oil / and keep dampening constant due to temperature increase. We do not run resevoirs because we do not need them. Not running a resevoir does not mean it is an inferior shock. You look at FACTORY only shocks (this means the public can not buy them) and a lot of the canisters are attached straight to the shock. This is not for cooling purposes as John said, it is for adjustment. Multiple adjustments (many companies can not even do two on one shaft) is not possible on one shaft, so this is a MAJOR reason for a resevoir as well.
On our 60mm applications, we have a resevoir ---- for a hydraulic bump stop !! No internal oil is displaced. We use the 60mm in conditions were the 50mm does heat up, say on Rally Acropolis ??? On a track car, the shock simply does not use enough stroke at high speed to generate these temps on our 50mm line.
Attached is a graph that you say is not possible .... the first one shows independant bump, the second one (needed a rebuild as shown by low speed compression being off !!, but rebound is right, as well as the rest of the curve). I can also dig up some more like this from other manufacturers ... oh, yeah, forgot to say .. the other company that does this, you will pay over 5000$ A CORNER not a set, a corner for this setup.
Progressive springs, or TENDER springs compliment a low speed dampening, not negate it. If your low speed spring is in compression, the high speed would negate this, not the low speed.
Last edited by M5150; Nov 21, 2005 at 10:21 AM.
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 119
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The cross over you are talking about I mentioned at the lowspeed area was the reason that shock was rebuilt. Yes the graphs posted are from a rally strut ... not even for an evo. The point was the curve and indendant adjustment is possible as you claimed was not.
Loads experienced on a freeway ... hmmmm if you hit a 1 cm bump at 140mph, what kind of force do you think that exerts ?
Acropolis was mentioned relating to the need for extra fluid displacement to reduce the chance of overheating. I provided the example were a remote resevoir or an extra 10mm diameter piston bore could help.
You did not acknowledge any comment about shaft temperatures and your professional explanation as to why a remote resevoir is needed besides to aid in cooling ?
I have a better idea, I have 5 different cars running the 25hour endurance event at thunderhill Raceway in CA in less than 2 weeks time. I invite anyone to come chat / discuss / debate info, etc as well as differences of a design on paper as well as in practice.
Question (seriously, and politely, I do not know this term) What do you mean "you see no knee on the compression of my shock ?"
I will get a dyno chart of a full tarmac spec front and rear EVO8 strut to post so we can compare apples to apples. I apologize for posting something that is not entirely pertinant.
Also goes to show that anyone can post dyno charts
Loads experienced on a freeway ... hmmmm if you hit a 1 cm bump at 140mph, what kind of force do you think that exerts ?
Acropolis was mentioned relating to the need for extra fluid displacement to reduce the chance of overheating. I provided the example were a remote resevoir or an extra 10mm diameter piston bore could help.
You did not acknowledge any comment about shaft temperatures and your professional explanation as to why a remote resevoir is needed besides to aid in cooling ?
I have a better idea, I have 5 different cars running the 25hour endurance event at thunderhill Raceway in CA in less than 2 weeks time. I invite anyone to come chat / discuss / debate info, etc as well as differences of a design on paper as well as in practice.
Question (seriously, and politely, I do not know this term) What do you mean "you see no knee on the compression of my shock ?"
I will get a dyno chart of a full tarmac spec front and rear EVO8 strut to post so we can compare apples to apples. I apologize for posting something that is not entirely pertinant.
Also goes to show that anyone can post dyno charts
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 119
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I hope to meet some new faces at the 25hr of thunderhill this weekend ! I will be at the track starting Friday morning for out 1st test session.
If anyone comes and wants to chat, my mobile is 514-242-3967 !! Have a great race everyone !
Regards,
Mark
If anyone comes and wants to chat, my mobile is 514-242-3967 !! Have a great race everyone !
Regards,
Mark
Evolved Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,481
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Originally Posted by DMS_Mark
I hope to meet some new faces at the 25hr of thunderhill this weekend ! I will be at the track starting Friday morning for out 1st test session.
If anyone comes and wants to chat, my mobile is 514-242-3967 !! Have a great race everyone !
Regards,
Mark
If anyone comes and wants to chat, my mobile is 514-242-3967 !! Have a great race everyone !
Regards,
Mark
