2008 Redline Time Attack Rules Discussion
Dec 23, 2007, 05:14 PM
#16
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That was my understanding until the following statement:
I assume that by "out", Nikolas means "not legal". Or maybe he means "out" as in "out on the track". 
Who knows.
That's why I felt the need to ask a simple "yes", "no" question. And I'd still like Nikolas to answer that Q.
As to dampers that "adjust high and low speed", that's not really the point, either. ALL single and double adjustable dampers adjust both high and low speed damping. They just don't adjust these two independently of one another.
mxpop - Your reference to "mechanism" is good, because it's clear what the intent is.
The change needs to be made simply because, even if you don't consider the rule incorrect (which I do...), it doesn't follow industry standard definitions of damper adjustment.
Clarity is everything in rules. No need to introduce gray area where none need exist.
And a side point... not sure what the deal is with external reservoirs. I can only guess what the intention is on this rule is (save money?). To allow KWs, perhaps? The reality is the method of attachment of an external reservoir is inmaterial to its function.
For instance, you can get ANY Penske damper with a "piggyback" (attached to the damper), or a "remote" (attached via an SS line), double, triple or 4-way adjustable.
Who knows.That's why I felt the need to ask a simple "yes", "no" question. And I'd still like Nikolas to answer that Q.
As to dampers that "adjust high and low speed", that's not really the point, either. ALL single and double adjustable dampers adjust both high and low speed damping. They just don't adjust these two independently of one another.
mxpop - Your reference to "mechanism" is good, because it's clear what the intent is.
The change needs to be made simply because, even if you don't consider the rule incorrect (which I do...), it doesn't follow industry standard definitions of damper adjustment.
Clarity is everything in rules. No need to introduce gray area where none need exist.
And a side point... not sure what the deal is with external reservoirs. I can only guess what the intention is on this rule is (save money?). To allow KWs, perhaps? The reality is the method of attachment of an external reservoir is inmaterial to its function.
For instance, you can get ANY Penske damper with a "piggyback" (attached to the damper), or a "remote" (attached via an SS line), double, triple or 4-way adjustable.
Last edited by ZzyzxM; Dec 23, 2007 at 05:23 PM.
Dec 24, 2007, 09:09 AM
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B, Yes, there are wheel to wheel races as part of the RTA program for 2008. It will be for the top 7 in each class. I too am concerened about this. Being a fast racer (time attack) doesnt neccessarily make you good/fast in traffic or while passing or being passed. The first one is over 6 months away and I'm sure the details and guidelines will be made clear by then.
Zz, I'm like you. I too hate unclear/loopholes in rules. I read the rules and intend to interpret and stretch them as much as possible. However, when unusual terminology or contradiction exits, it makes it really hard to do so with confidence. I didnt understand your question before but now I see what you mean by "out in street class" as opposed to "NOT ALLOWED in street class". Without more clarification, that rule can def be read either way even tho I'm sure I know what they intended which is to ban shocks that allow for seperate adjustment of hi/low speed damping.
BTW, I dont think any of the rules are about saving $$$. Adding a cat and retuning for unleaded will cost more $$$ and complexity, esp to a car that is already developed and currently using leaded gas. It will also keep more heat at the turbo which is never a good thing. A cheap and crappy multi-adjustable shock is not as good as an expensive and more effective 2-way adjustable shock, esp if you spend time on a shock dyno maximizing it for your car's needs. I like the 255 tire rule but it will make teams with 10"/275 tires have to buy new wheels and spend time adjusting their setup. The tires may ba a bit cheaper but it will never offset the initial cost to change or the added developement time needed.
I raced with the AMA (American Motorcycle ***') for 7 years and now my kids do too. Their rule book is huge and very wordy yet they still have to make clarifications and outright changes to the rules all the time. Much of this is due to creative racers/designers and also the constant change in equipment. Every full size bike is now a 4-stroke and about 1/2 of the mini/super-mini class is too. Add the steady flow of irrate dads and you have a recipe for disaster.
RLTA rules are def in their infancy and have lots of room for improvement. They are also a lot better than last year and I'm sure they will continue to improve. How-ever, I plan on sending the RLTA staff an email whenever something that applies to me is unclear or questionable so that I dont go the wrong way with it. A written response can be a lifesaver if you get protested next season. They have been really great at getting back quickly with a response.
nikolas@redlinetrackevents.com
Zz, I'm like you. I too hate unclear/loopholes in rules. I read the rules and intend to interpret and stretch them as much as possible. However, when unusual terminology or contradiction exits, it makes it really hard to do so with confidence. I didnt understand your question before but now I see what you mean by "out in street class" as opposed to "NOT ALLOWED in street class". Without more clarification, that rule can def be read either way even tho I'm sure I know what they intended which is to ban shocks that allow for seperate adjustment of hi/low speed damping.
BTW, I dont think any of the rules are about saving $$$. Adding a cat and retuning for unleaded will cost more $$$ and complexity, esp to a car that is already developed and currently using leaded gas. It will also keep more heat at the turbo which is never a good thing. A cheap and crappy multi-adjustable shock is not as good as an expensive and more effective 2-way adjustable shock, esp if you spend time on a shock dyno maximizing it for your car's needs. I like the 255 tire rule but it will make teams with 10"/275 tires have to buy new wheels and spend time adjusting their setup. The tires may ba a bit cheaper but it will never offset the initial cost to change or the added developement time needed.
I raced with the AMA (American Motorcycle ***') for 7 years and now my kids do too. Their rule book is huge and very wordy yet they still have to make clarifications and outright changes to the rules all the time. Much of this is due to creative racers/designers and also the constant change in equipment. Every full size bike is now a 4-stroke and about 1/2 of the mini/super-mini class is too. Add the steady flow of irrate dads and you have a recipe for disaster.
RLTA rules are def in their infancy and have lots of room for improvement. They are also a lot better than last year and I'm sure they will continue to improve. How-ever, I plan on sending the RLTA staff an email whenever something that applies to me is unclear or questionable so that I dont go the wrong way with it. A written response can be a lifesaver if you get protested next season. They have been really great at getting back quickly with a response.
nikolas@redlinetrackevents.com
Last edited by mxpop; Dec 24, 2007 at 09:22 AM.
it was a cat related question...
Dec 26, 2007, 01:53 PM
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And a side point... not sure what the deal is with external reservoirs. I can only guess what the intention is on this rule is (save money?). To allow KWs, perhaps? The reality is the method of attachment of an external reservoir is inmaterial to its function.
For instance, you can get ANY Penske damper with a "piggyback" (attached to the damper), or a "remote" (attached via an SS line), double, triple or 4-way adjustable.
For instance, you can get ANY Penske damper with a "piggyback" (attached to the damper), or a "remote" (attached via an SS line), double, triple or 4-way adjustable.
I'd like to compete in a couple events this year, but not at the expense of changing my double adjustable external reservoir shocks.
Hey, maybe this would give me an excuse to try the zzyzx 28's, huh Steve.
Dave
Dec 26, 2007, 03:51 PM
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3.4 All Modified Class vehicles are required to use DOT approved tires with UTQG tread wear ratings of 50 and above. Tires with less than a UTQG rating of 50 are not permitted in Modified Class.
3.5 Tire Exception: The BFGoodrich R1 tire may be used in the Modified Class
Dec 26, 2007, 03:59 PM
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B, Yes, there are wheel to wheel races as part of the RTA program for 2008. It will be for the top 7 in each class. I too am concerened about this. Being a fast racer (time attack) doesnt neccessarily make you good/fast in traffic or while passing or being passed. The first one is over 6 months away and I'm sure the details and guidelines will be made clear by then.
Dec 26, 2007, 04:30 PM
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Bueller,
I'm with you that some kind of wheel-to-wheel expirience/background/licensing should be required. I'm confident that RTA will have a safe solution/policy for this by the time it rolls around.
Dec 27, 2007, 10:51 AM
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Right on, the KONI 28s, or these. Take your pick.
I talked with those guys extensively when they were testing a couple Speed Touring cars at HPT in 06'. According ANZE, Penske does not produce a strut body type because of liability reasons. They were not comfortable with the side loads placed on a strut body. There have been several T2 cars running ANZE designed Strut Penske's for past couple of years.
mxpop- Remote external reservoir Moton's, "Not allowed". Hence, my complaint.
Dave
Dec 27, 2007, 11:16 AM
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B, Yes, there are wheel to wheel races as part of the RTA program for 2008. It will be for the top 7 in each class. I too am concerened about this. Being a fast racer (time attack) doesnt neccessarily make you good/fast in traffic or while passing or being passed. The first one is over 6 months away and I'm sure the details and guidelines will be made clear by then.
This is the first I have heard of wheel-to-wheel racing with Redline.
Dec 27, 2007, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Redline Rules
2008 Redline Time Attack Rules
Section 1. Rules Applicable to All Classes
1.3 Tube Frame Chassis prohibited. Unibody must remain intact and un-altered. Certain exceptions apply; please see individual Class sections for further details.
1.16 Vehicles must be built from a model originally produced for legal street use in North America, Europe or Japan.
Section 1. Rules Applicable to All Classes
1.3 Tube Frame Chassis prohibited. Unibody must remain intact and un-altered. Certain exceptions apply; please see individual Class sections for further details.
1.16 Vehicles must be built from a model originally produced for legal street use in North America, Europe or Japan.
Originally Posted by Redline Rules
Section 4. UNLIMITED CLASS
The Unlimited Class is designed for full blown race/Time Attack vehicles and "super car" exotics.
Rules specific for Unlimited Class Cars:
4.15 All Unlimited Class vehicles must have an Electrical Master Switch or “Kill Switch” installed. The switch should be mounted so that it is easily accessible from outside of the vehicle. The switch should cut all power except to the onboard fire system. The switch location must be clearly marked.
4.18 See "Vehicle Classification List" For List of Vehicles Relegated to Unlimited Class. i.e. some vehicles will NOT be permitted in the Street or Modified Class due to specific horse power or other specifications. For example, a Ferrari Enzo or Porsche Carrera GT will be relegated to the Unlimited class due to there "super car" specification.
4.19 Some cars will only be able to compete in the Unlimited class. Depending on vehicle dynamics, some cars will be relegated to the Unlimited class, click "Vehicle Classes" for the list of vehicles relegated to the Unlimited class.
The Unlimited Class is designed for full blown race/Time Attack vehicles and "super car" exotics.
Rules specific for Unlimited Class Cars:
4.15 All Unlimited Class vehicles must have an Electrical Master Switch or “Kill Switch” installed. The switch should be mounted so that it is easily accessible from outside of the vehicle. The switch should cut all power except to the onboard fire system. The switch location must be clearly marked.
4.18 See "Vehicle Classification List" For List of Vehicles Relegated to Unlimited Class. i.e. some vehicles will NOT be permitted in the Street or Modified Class due to specific horse power or other specifications. For example, a Ferrari Enzo or Porsche Carrera GT will be relegated to the Unlimited class due to there "super car" specification.
4.19 Some cars will only be able to compete in the Unlimited class. Depending on vehicle dynamics, some cars will be relegated to the Unlimited class, click "Vehicle Classes" for the list of vehicles relegated to the Unlimited class.
I have a few other questions, some of which I might be willing to ask, and some of which I might want to exploit.
Dec 27, 2007, 01:16 PM
#29
By these rules, I believe I haven't even one "major" upgrade, even though I have a built, 4g63, and an aftermarket turbo kit. No upgrade because built motors don't count as an upgrade 2.5.4 (allows for changing crankshaft which I did giving me 2.25 displacement) and the Evo come standard with forced induction. Right?
However, if someone with an Evo was to install a built 4g64 (galant 2.4 liter block), would that count as a "major" upgrade (2.5.1) since it is an engine block from another model?
2.5. One “major” engine upgrade permitted in Street Class.
· 2.5.1 An engine swap is considered one major engine upgrade. However, owners are permitted to swap an engine into their USDM vehicle if the engine was offered in the same chassis/model elsewhere in the world (JDM for example) for that chassis/model, and the engine swap will NOT count as a major engine upgrade.
· 2.5.2 Installing forced induction is considered one major engine upgrade.
· 2.5.3 Installing an OE turbocharged engine, that was available in a different market (JDM for example), into a USDM model of the same vehicle that did not come with a factory turbocharged engine, is permitted. This will only count as one major engine upgrade.
· 2.5.4 Engines are permitted to be “built”. (Forged rods, pistons, crank, etc). Built engines are not considered a major engine upgrade per these rules.
However, if someone with an Evo was to install a built 4g64 (galant 2.4 liter block), would that count as a "major" upgrade (2.5.1) since it is an engine block from another model?
2.5. One “major” engine upgrade permitted in Street Class.
· 2.5.1 An engine swap is considered one major engine upgrade. However, owners are permitted to swap an engine into their USDM vehicle if the engine was offered in the same chassis/model elsewhere in the world (JDM for example) for that chassis/model, and the engine swap will NOT count as a major engine upgrade.
· 2.5.2 Installing forced induction is considered one major engine upgrade.
· 2.5.3 Installing an OE turbocharged engine, that was available in a different market (JDM for example), into a USDM model of the same vehicle that did not come with a factory turbocharged engine, is permitted. This will only count as one major engine upgrade.
· 2.5.4 Engines are permitted to be “built”. (Forged rods, pistons, crank, etc). Built engines are not considered a major engine upgrade per these rules.
