tire choices.
Ive read conflicting reports about the R1, allot of guys seem to really like them, but that was back in the summer where track temps were probably quite high, softening the tires up a bit. If you want to keep it to lower-end DOT-R tires, why not set the treadwear higher. like 80 or 100? all the other tires are 100AA...
Spec would be the best choice in that case, I think.
Anyway, the whole reasoning being "cost" is unfortunately way off base. You say that cars in Modified are not intended to be race cars, but there are cars in STREET that make my car look like a Toyota Prius. Tires are a very small cost factor compared to the money being put into these cars, and limiting the tire choices so that people CAN'T use the tires that are most commonly used in every OTHER huge racing venue just keeps people like me from coming over. Compare the RTA attendance with NASA and SCCA events - no comparison. SCCA has over 1000 cars at the National Finale (autox, but tires/cost/competitiveness are the main point) with tons of them using the tires you don't allow and that's even in stock class where race tires are allowed. It's an expense that is part of racing, and it's a very small one at that compared to the rest of the car setup.
It just seems petty to be worried about tire cost when such extravagant cars are allowed in the same class where proper tires are not allowed. By no means do only unlimited cars use A6/R6s and V710s. You will find stock Civics in H-Stock with less than 100HP using them. Even Evos in A-Stock can slap 275-width V710s on the stock rims and rock out. So, in effect, it drastically increases cost for everyone else who already is racing in well-established venues with far more competitors, because to move over and do an RTA event, the vast majority of us have to get a whole new set of tires (and rims maybe) to compete in what amounts to 1-2 events as opposed to the 10-15 we get to do on our current setup.
PS. The difference between a set of 285/30-18 V710s is not that far off from a set of 255/35-18 RE-01Rs. It's nowhere near the scale of cost difference between those in Street and those in Unlimited...or Modified even.
Anyway, the whole reasoning being "cost" is unfortunately way off base. You say that cars in Modified are not intended to be race cars, but there are cars in STREET that make my car look like a Toyota Prius. Tires are a very small cost factor compared to the money being put into these cars, and limiting the tire choices so that people CAN'T use the tires that are most commonly used in every OTHER huge racing venue just keeps people like me from coming over. Compare the RTA attendance with NASA and SCCA events - no comparison. SCCA has over 1000 cars at the National Finale (autox, but tires/cost/competitiveness are the main point) with tons of them using the tires you don't allow and that's even in stock class where race tires are allowed. It's an expense that is part of racing, and it's a very small one at that compared to the rest of the car setup.
It just seems petty to be worried about tire cost when such extravagant cars are allowed in the same class where proper tires are not allowed. By no means do only unlimited cars use A6/R6s and V710s. You will find stock Civics in H-Stock with less than 100HP using them. Even Evos in A-Stock can slap 275-width V710s on the stock rims and rock out. So, in effect, it drastically increases cost for everyone else who already is racing in well-established venues with far more competitors, because to move over and do an RTA event, the vast majority of us have to get a whole new set of tires (and rims maybe) to compete in what amounts to 1-2 events as opposed to the 10-15 we get to do on our current setup.
PS. The difference between a set of 285/30-18 V710s is not that far off from a set of 255/35-18 RE-01Rs. It's nowhere near the scale of cost difference between those in Street and those in Unlimited...or Modified even.
Heck, sometimes the street tires actually cost more than the same or simmilar size race tire!
But my only complaint is the R1 being allowed in Mod and not any other popular R-comp slick-type tire. I just see it as an inconsistency in the rules. Id love to run a RTA event, but my nearly stock powered car would get torn up in Unlimited.
But my only complaint is the R1 being allowed in Mod and not any other popular R-comp slick-type tire. I just see it as an inconsistency in the rules. Id love to run a RTA event, but my nearly stock powered car would get torn up in Unlimited.
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: California
I'm reading your guy's comments and keeping an open mind to the suggestions and points of view. I agree with some of the points and logic, and disagree with others...discourse is good.
Other sanctioning bodies can't say that... ;-)
Maybe one day we will open the tire rules for Modified Class.... who knows.
Street will ALWAYS stay at 140 or higher....
I feel that you cannot compare cars you see in Time Attack to what you see in other "spec" or highly restricted forms of automotive racing events... I would expect a top end "Street Class" time attack car to fully whip the pants off of many "street" class SCCA and NASA cars. That is the nature of Time Attack, plain and simple. Run what ya brung, built to the hilt, who's got the fastest Street Car?... Which is one reason why Redline Time Attack has become so popular and is growing at the rate it is.
Good discussion though on all of your parts....
Other sanctioning bodies can't say that... ;-)
Maybe one day we will open the tire rules for Modified Class.... who knows.
Street will ALWAYS stay at 140 or higher....
I feel that you cannot compare cars you see in Time Attack to what you see in other "spec" or highly restricted forms of automotive racing events... I would expect a top end "Street Class" time attack car to fully whip the pants off of many "street" class SCCA and NASA cars. That is the nature of Time Attack, plain and simple. Run what ya brung, built to the hilt, who's got the fastest Street Car?... Which is one reason why Redline Time Attack has become so popular and is growing at the rate it is.
Good discussion though on all of your parts....
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 320
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From: California
SPEC tires will NEVER happen in the Redline Time Attack... that is VERY bad for the series, bad for the racers, bad for the industry.. BAD BAD BAD!
Time Attack is a proving ground for products. More and more manufacturers are seeing that, and using our events to test their products, and prove who has the best products for this sort of automotive activity. Tires being a major part of this.
:-)
Time Attack is a proving ground for products. More and more manufacturers are seeing that, and using our events to test their products, and prove who has the best products for this sort of automotive activity. Tires being a major part of this.
:-)
That's just where I need help understanding. You say it's run what you brung, but then you call it a street car. Street tires do not make a car a street car - by no stretch of the imagination. Neither does forcing the use of a cat - all that does it make it a race car with a cat and street tires.
You mention how quickly it's growing in popularity, but that's kind of like a new bank claiming to be the "fastest growing bank in the country." Well, yeah, if you go from 5 customers to 50, you had 1000% growth!!! However, in that same time, Bank of America grew by .1%, which happened to be 10,000 customers. I think RTA is a great thing that has been sorely missing in this country, but the level of participation pales in comparison to any other racing venue, and for the many of us already doing more popular racing venues, we are hampered from joining you due to the strange tire rules. They simply make no sense, because DOT slicks are EXTREMELY COMMON and NORMAL. No one expects only an Unlimited car to use those, which is where the disconnect seems to be.
I'm not actually concerned with the 140 limit for street - that's pretty cool, because there are a bunch of tires to choose from for 140, and that's the SAME limit for SCCA street tire classes - perfect. However, the Modified cutoff just kills us, because the you set the cutoff just above the best tires and left almost nothing to choose from. I have RT-615s for daily use, but those aren't close to competitive in street class despite being 140 rated. That's why I only use my V710s for racing. Since my RT-615s are wearing out, I'm going to replace them with 255 RE-01Rs, which fits nicely with RTA, but what I really want to do is Modified with my V710s, since my whole setup is built around my race rims and tires, not my stock rims and street tires.
You mention how quickly it's growing in popularity, but that's kind of like a new bank claiming to be the "fastest growing bank in the country." Well, yeah, if you go from 5 customers to 50, you had 1000% growth!!! However, in that same time, Bank of America grew by .1%, which happened to be 10,000 customers. I think RTA is a great thing that has been sorely missing in this country, but the level of participation pales in comparison to any other racing venue, and for the many of us already doing more popular racing venues, we are hampered from joining you due to the strange tire rules. They simply make no sense, because DOT slicks are EXTREMELY COMMON and NORMAL. No one expects only an Unlimited car to use those, which is where the disconnect seems to be.
I'm not actually concerned with the 140 limit for street - that's pretty cool, because there are a bunch of tires to choose from for 140, and that's the SAME limit for SCCA street tire classes - perfect. However, the Modified cutoff just kills us, because the you set the cutoff just above the best tires and left almost nothing to choose from. I have RT-615s for daily use, but those aren't close to competitive in street class despite being 140 rated. That's why I only use my V710s for racing. Since my RT-615s are wearing out, I'm going to replace them with 255 RE-01Rs, which fits nicely with RTA, but what I really want to do is Modified with my V710s, since my whole setup is built around my race rims and tires, not my stock rims and street tires.
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Id like to say its really cool of you Nik to actually be having a dialouge with the people interested in running your series.
I cant say it better than Clay just did above really. Id just like to add that allot of guys cars who run DOT-R slicks have setups that are tuned around the grip level of those tires. So run succesfully on street tires, some of us might even have to get new spring rates, ect.
And it seems there have been a few tests that suggest the R1 is actually better for track driving than the v710, I just dont see why its legal.
I cant say it better than Clay just did above really. Id just like to add that allot of guys cars who run DOT-R slicks have setups that are tuned around the grip level of those tires. So run succesfully on street tires, some of us might even have to get new spring rates, ect.
And it seems there have been a few tests that suggest the R1 is actually better for track driving than the v710, I just dont see why its legal.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,535
Likes: 60
From: Park Ridge N.J.
guys i still can't find those hughe selection tires in 255/35-18 . I always ending up to find the RE-01R... its a karma? 
can anybody give me that site's where i can find those others?
can anybody give me that site's where i can find those others?
That's just where I need help understanding. You say it's run what you brung, but then you call it a street car. Street tires do not make a car a street car - by no stretch of the imagination. Neither does forcing the use of a cat - all that does it make it a race car with a cat and street tires.
You mention how quickly it's growing in popularity, but that's kind of like a new bank claiming to be the "fastest growing bank in the country." Well, yeah, if you go from 5 customers to 50, you had 1000% growth!!! However, in that same time, Bank of America grew by .1%, which happened to be 10,000 customers. I think RTA is a great thing that has been sorely missing in this country, but the level of participation pales in comparison to any other racing venue, and for the many of us already doing more popular racing venues, we are hampered from joining you due to the strange tire rules. They simply make no sense, because DOT slicks are EXTREMELY COMMON and NORMAL. No one expects only an Unlimited car to use those, which is where the disconnect seems to be.
I'm not actually concerned with the 140 limit for street - that's pretty cool, because there are a bunch of tires to choose from for 140, and that's the SAME limit for SCCA street tire classes - perfect. However, the Modified cutoff just kills us, because the you set the cutoff just above the best tires and left almost nothing to choose from. I have RT-615s for daily use, but those aren't close to competitive in street class despite being 140 rated. That's why I only use my V710s for racing. Since my RT-615s are wearing out, I'm going to replace them with 255 RE-01Rs, which fits nicely with RTA, but what I really want to do is Modified with my V710s, since my whole setup is built around my race rims and tires, not my stock rims and street tires.
You mention how quickly it's growing in popularity, but that's kind of like a new bank claiming to be the "fastest growing bank in the country." Well, yeah, if you go from 5 customers to 50, you had 1000% growth!!! However, in that same time, Bank of America grew by .1%, which happened to be 10,000 customers. I think RTA is a great thing that has been sorely missing in this country, but the level of participation pales in comparison to any other racing venue, and for the many of us already doing more popular racing venues, we are hampered from joining you due to the strange tire rules. They simply make no sense, because DOT slicks are EXTREMELY COMMON and NORMAL. No one expects only an Unlimited car to use those, which is where the disconnect seems to be.
I'm not actually concerned with the 140 limit for street - that's pretty cool, because there are a bunch of tires to choose from for 140, and that's the SAME limit for SCCA street tire classes - perfect. However, the Modified cutoff just kills us, because the you set the cutoff just above the best tires and left almost nothing to choose from. I have RT-615s for daily use, but those aren't close to competitive in street class despite being 140 rated. That's why I only use my V710s for racing. Since my RT-615s are wearing out, I'm going to replace them with 255 RE-01Rs, which fits nicely with RTA, but what I really want to do is Modified with my V710s, since my whole setup is built around my race rims and tires, not my stock rims and street tires.
First of all, thank you Nikolas for listening. You cant make everyone happy, but its nice to know that youre listening.
I agree with what Warrtalon is saying regarding the tread wear rating limits. Ive stated this in the past. IIRC i mentioned it in the thread that covers the new RTA rules.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=314383
^^^
Here is the thread that covers the new RTA rules. Noting the thread just in case someone doesnt know where it is. Its very long, and it has been an on going debate over different issues. I havent looked through it lately. Its just too dang long. Moving on...being a NASA TTer, im sort of in the same boat as Warrtalon. Long story short, (given my setup) i would want to run in Modified, but since the RTA rules on tires for the Modified class do not work in conjunction with my TTA setup, im kind of screwed.
Yes, and as Ryan mentioned, although I can actually slap on some 255-width 140-rated street tires, my setup is by no means built for such a tire. I run -3.0 camber with extreme spring rates that simply don't work for street tires. I'm sure the same holds true for the badass Time Attack cars in Street class and even in Modified. Are they running much more subdued and less aggressive suspension setups just to accommodate the weak tires? It seems counterproductive to the point you made earlier about wanting these to be the cream of the crop Time Attack cars. I know an NT-01 will handle my setup better than an RE-01R, but still not as good as a V710.
As a caveat, I'd like to add that I also appreciate the dialogue and am not saying these things just to be a pain. I truly plan to run GTLive in SLC this year, and as things stand now, I wouldn't be able to. Even if I get some 255 RE-01Rs for my stock 17X8 rims, that setup won't be optimum due to not having a large enough rim for that size tire (other than my race rims that already have my V710s mounted) and due to my suspension being setup for a much stiffer sidewall.
As a caveat, I'd like to add that I also appreciate the dialogue and am not saying these things just to be a pain. I truly plan to run GTLive in SLC this year, and as things stand now, I wouldn't be able to. Even if I get some 255 RE-01Rs for my stock 17X8 rims, that setup won't be optimum due to not having a large enough rim for that size tire (other than my race rims that already have my V710s mounted) and due to my suspension being setup for a much stiffer sidewall.
http://www.dunloptires.com/dunlop/di...ea=Performance
According to allot of people testing them on SCCA forums, they seem to handle heat far better than the RE01R, and have stiffer sidewalls. Around auto-x courses, people are on average, 1/2 a second faster than the Bridgestones on the new Z1.
Dunlop makes their New Direzza Z1 in that size:
http://www.dunloptires.com/dunlop/di...ea=Performance
According to allot of people testing them on SCCA forums, they seem to handle heat far better than the RE01R, and have stiffer sidewalls. Around auto-x courses, people are on average, 1/2 a second faster than the Bridgestones on the new Z1.
http://www.dunloptires.com/dunlop/di...ea=Performance
According to allot of people testing them on SCCA forums, they seem to handle heat far better than the RE01R, and have stiffer sidewalls. Around auto-x courses, people are on average, 1/2 a second faster than the Bridgestones on the new Z1.
Treadwear:200
Traction: A
Temperature: A
Is that the same tire. I would have expected a much lower treadwear and AA traction. These tires really are outperforming RE-01Rs?