NASA TTB or TTA?
I have gone over the same question myself. I think im going to try and get my TT license in july at the autobahn, My car will be a TT-S. It would actually cost me money at this point to de-mod and re-tune. So I will see how i hang. But i have some back round in the midwestern council of sports car clubs so i hope that helps pave the way for point formated racing.
Bueller and heeltoer bring up some excellent points and hit the nail on the head. I came to the same conclusion just by bench racing after watching a local driver by the name of John Slinkard (2007 NASA TTB Champ). Yeah how lame is that? 
He drives a very competetive Honda S2000 (modified) and I'm nowhere near his times on our local track (MAM) in what is basically a TTB EVO. Not even close! 
http://www.nasachampionships.com/pdf/2007-GroupG.pdf
IMHO, in order to win in NASA TT it seems like you have to jump at least 2 classes over your base call in order to be nationally competetive and modify the car to the max limit the rules allow. That means the EVO will most likely be competetive in TTS and higher. I've told myself if I ever try doing NASA TT, I'll start with a much cheaper platform and much lower classed car.
He drives a very competetive Honda S2000 (modified) and I'm nowhere near his times on our local track (MAM) in what is basically a TTB EVO. Not even close! http://www.nasachampionships.com/pdf/2007-GroupG.pdf
IMHO, in order to win in NASA TT it seems like you have to jump at least 2 classes over your base call in order to be nationally competetive and modify the car to the max limit the rules allow. That means the EVO will most likely be competetive in TTS and higher. I've told myself if I ever try doing NASA TT, I'll start with a much cheaper platform and much lower classed car.
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Bueller and heeltoer bring up some excellent points and hit the nail on the head. I came to the same conclusion just by bench racing after watching a local driver by the name of John Slinkard (2007 NASA TTB Champ). Yeah how lame is that? He drives a very competetive Honda S2000 (modified) and I'm nowhere near his times on our local track (MAM) in what is basically a TTB EVO. Not even close!
He drives a very competetive Honda S2000 (modified) and I'm nowhere near his times on our local track (MAM) in what is basically a TTB EVO. Not even close! And thanks for the link; I've been looking for the official 2007 results! Given, the IN/OH and Midwest guys have a homefield advantage, but check out the list:
TTA - Midwest
TTB - Midwest
TTC - SoCal
TTD - Midwest
TTE - IN/OH
TTF - Midwest
TTR - Midwest (Evo)
TTS - IN/OH
TTR - IN/OH
The top 4 cars in TTA nationally are C5Z06's. I've ran with several of them.
Last edited by boomn29; Jun 26, 2008 at 10:53 AM.
Slinkard is stupid fast, no doubt. Super nice guy as well, always there to help out. The only possible relief from the Z06 onslaught at Nationals is that a fair number of them have gotten their comp license this year, so if they are running in TT it could be their last year. Of course, there seems to be a never ending supply of those damn things out there...
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Heeltoer is correct, as is Ed (Bueller). TTB is no longer the optimized place for an Evo, and probably never has been. It is going to be very difficult for an Evo in that level of preparation to compete with the E-30 and E-36 M3's, the Lightweight older Porches, and even Honda's prepped to H1 standards. the evo is simply too heavy and can not make enough power in that trim to be competitive for most drivers. I will be running a CRX in TTB next year at 2300 pounds and 200 WHP...It could be more competitive than most TTB evos at our norcal tracks, as the car is capable of 2:01's or so. I believe that the Evo is well-placed in TTS, and TTU, but optimally in TTS. In regions where there are a lot of TTS prepped z06's, the job is even tougher. TTA will also soon be dominated by well prepped (Turner group n suspension, Euro 3.2) M3's. that car has become the new cheater car in TTA and TTB.
Good advice from bueller up top. I took my TTC base 03 evo 8 to the top of Norcal TTB in '07. Is it repeatable? No, at least not in Norcal for the forseeable future. A car with a lower starting class ( E36 M3 TTD ) plus some very nicely done prep work walked away with the latter part of the season.
In '06 this BMW was ~3 sec ahead at every track, I took my car to the points limit of TTB pre season 07 in hopes of catching him off guard. After having won 5 straight weekends (out of 7) the BMW owner started to upgrade. He was able to add diffs, gearing and suspension AND the +10 tires which resulted in a 2+ second gap at all Norcal tracks. The E36 M3 still had around 7 pts left to go. The M3 attended the same events as I did. Bottomline: I was able to start strong and never had to look back.
That being said, are there nonpts mods I could have done to better my competativeness? Sure, stripped the car of ~100lbs (like AC, interior, crash beams), add roll bar (only, cage too heavy) fresh set of shaved R888 every other weekend, skys the limit. That could have made up those missing 2 seconds. About the remaining 7 pts though...
Anyways, if you really want to win in TTB TTA get yourself a BMW. The current Norcal TTB car to beat is an E30 M3. Or, just enjoy your time in TT till you can save enough money to properly prep a TTS car. Refer to Sean Mckenzie's well prepped TTS evo9.
Oh and before I forget, this is assuming your driving is on par with the competition or better. Both BMW drivers are good buddies of mine and I have no doubt that they are capable drivers. If you are not sure about your driving, get that in order first, don't worry about prepping the car. When you are ready to prep the car, do it between seasons and don't bother unless ure pushing towards the top of a class.
In '06 this BMW was ~3 sec ahead at every track, I took my car to the points limit of TTB pre season 07 in hopes of catching him off guard. After having won 5 straight weekends (out of 7) the BMW owner started to upgrade. He was able to add diffs, gearing and suspension AND the +10 tires which resulted in a 2+ second gap at all Norcal tracks. The E36 M3 still had around 7 pts left to go. The M3 attended the same events as I did. Bottomline: I was able to start strong and never had to look back.
That being said, are there nonpts mods I could have done to better my competativeness? Sure, stripped the car of ~100lbs (like AC, interior, crash beams), add roll bar (only, cage too heavy) fresh set of shaved R888 every other weekend, skys the limit. That could have made up those missing 2 seconds. About the remaining 7 pts though...
Anyways, if you really want to win in TTB TTA get yourself a BMW. The current Norcal TTB car to beat is an E30 M3. Or, just enjoy your time in TT till you can save enough money to properly prep a TTS car. Refer to Sean Mckenzie's well prepped TTS evo9.
Oh and before I forget, this is assuming your driving is on par with the competition or better. Both BMW drivers are good buddies of mine and I have no doubt that they are capable drivers. If you are not sure about your driving, get that in order first, don't worry about prepping the car. When you are ready to prep the car, do it between seasons and don't bother unless ure pushing towards the top of a class.
Bueller and heeltoer bring up some excellent points and hit the nail on the head. I came to the same conclusion just by bench racing after watching a local driver by the name of John Slinkard (2007 NASA TTB Champ). Yeah how lame is that? He drives a very competetive Honda S2000 (modified) and I'm nowhere near his times on our local track (MAM) in what is basically a TTB EVO. Not even close!
http://www.nasachampionships.com/pdf/2007-GroupG.pdf
IMHO, in order to win in NASA TT it seems like you have to jump at least 2 classes over your base call in order to be nationally competetive and modify the car to the max limit the rules allow. That means the EVO will most likely be competetive in TTS and higher. I've told myself if I ever try doing NASA TT, I'll start with a much cheaper platform and much lower classed car.
He drives a very competetive Honda S2000 (modified) and I'm nowhere near his times on our local track (MAM) in what is basically a TTB EVO. Not even close! http://www.nasachampionships.com/pdf/2007-GroupG.pdf
IMHO, in order to win in NASA TT it seems like you have to jump at least 2 classes over your base call in order to be nationally competetive and modify the car to the max limit the rules allow. That means the EVO will most likely be competetive in TTS and higher. I've told myself if I ever try doing NASA TT, I'll start with a much cheaper platform and much lower classed car.
Ed is right, the only exception being the C5 Z06 (I know I sound like a broken record here). In TTA trim they get a sway bar and 295 Hoosiers. Some have run 275 Hoosiers and used the saved points for an intake, etc., but the '07 TTA National champs car was driven to and from every event last year except nationals, and did not even have any weight reduction done. Swaybar, Hoosiers, and a filter. That's it. Very potent...
Ed is right, the only exception being the C5 Z06 (I know I sound like a broken record here). In TTA trim they get a sway bar and 295 Hoosiers. Some have run 275 Hoosiers and used the saved points for an intake, etc., but the '07 TTA National champs car was driven to and from every event last year except nationals, and did not even have any weight reduction done. Swaybar, Hoosiers, and a filter. That's it. Very potent...
3118/360 = 8.66
3118/370 = 8.42
3118/380 = 8.21
And if their competition weight is actually near their listed weight of 3118 lbs, those ratio examples of 8.66, 8.42, and 8.21 would actually be lower due to the alternative weight method because they would have to subtract from that ratio whatever weight modification factor they would fall into. I suppose they can add ballast to make themselves TTA legal, but right off the bat the numbers bump them out of TTA. And i have asked Greg G. about this several times, and he simply doesnt respond, or doesnt get into details.
All the cars at Nationals last year put down between 350 and 365 whp and were dyno'd several times. Their weight is not correct either, they are heavier than 3118 - closer to the Evo weight. We also all got weighed several times. I believe anything over 365whp would have bumped most of them into TTS. TTA is the PERFECT class for a c5 Z.
All the cars at Nationals last year put down between 350 and 365 whp and were dyno'd several times. Their weight is not correct either, they are heavier than 3118 - closer to the Evo weight. We also all got weighed several times. I believe anything over 365whp would have bumped most of them into TTS. TTA is the PERFECT class for a c5 Z.
How were the weigh-ins conducted? Surprise weigh-ins? Or were people told in advance? And what about being dynod? Surprise or told in advance? How often were the weigh-ins and dynoing conducted?
The same could be said about the Neon SRT4. It's factory rated HP is in actuality at the wheels. How can a car that has the same straight line acceleration/speed as an EVO be several classes below (just baffles me). I've seen an EVO and an SRT4 drag race and it's very close.
IMHO, one cure for having the base class cars be more competetive in their respective classes would be to make modifications cost more points (alot more), thus making cars jump more quickly up the classes for specific mods. Thereby not allowing lower class cars to turn into monsters before they move up a class.
Last edited by DaWorstPlaya; Jul 3, 2008 at 07:35 AM. Reason: grammer
There is so much to say, that i dont even know how to begin. In theory, with all those points, you can approach this in many different ways. But first, you have to decide what class you want to compete in. IMO the Evo/STi cant be competitive in its base class, which in both of our cases its TTB. Btw, i have an Evo 9. I have 2 friends who compete in Socal with me, both of which run in TTB. One has an Evo 9 MR, the other has a 05 STi. Theyre only competing in TTB because they dont want to spend the extra money right now to run in TTA.
Back on topic. The reason why i think that the Evo/STi cant be competitive in TTB is for a number of reasons. Someone can easily modify a TTD/TTC car and we would have a very difficult time with them. You said you spoke with the National TT director. Well that happens to be Greg Greenbaum, who is also the Socal TT director. Greg competes with his SRT4 in TTB and also sometimes in TTC. Greg pretty much dominates every year. Although, this year, Sean (my buddy with the STi) has given him some good competition. But if Greg really wants to, he can pretty much dominate at will. Why? The right car that has a much lower base class than ours has a huge advantage. What are the advantages? The right car, like the SRT4, is significantly lighter to begin with, and has a great deal of room to max out in TTB. Whereas the Evo 9 only has 19 points to max out in TTB. Now, the lower based class cars dont simply take points for everything. With an engine swap, or a modified turbo/sc you simply get re-classed with a new base class with regards to your new whp. So its not like they have a gazillion points to use up. The power mods are no longer part of the equation because you simply get re-classed. So basically, you can use up all the power mods without getting assessed points. Long story short, you can take a lower classed car, like the SRT4, and swap the turbo to meet the TTB class requirements and have more power than the Evo/STi but also be lighter. How can any TTB based classed car be competitive with that? Shortly you begin to realize that it comes down to the numbers. A lighter/more powerful car will naturally dominate. As you noted, the weight to power ratio limit for TTA-TTF is 8.70:1. With only 19 points at your disposal, how do you think anyone can maximize a TTB base class car and come close to that weight to power ratio limit? Because i hope you realize that in order for anyone to be competitive you have to not only use up all your points, but you also have to come close to that weight to power ratio limit of 8.70:1.
NASA, for us AWD drivers, wants dynojet numbers. Typically, Evos/STis put down about 260-270 whp on a dynojet. NASA believes that our cars weight is 3263 lbs. Without using the alternative weight method, if you simply divided those 2 numbers our weight to power ratio looks something like 3263/270 = 12.08 With only 19 points to stay in TTB, how do you suppose you can set your car up with the right tires, right suspension bits, and power, and be able to lower that 12.08 to come close to 8.70? You know how youre going to be able to do that? Ill tell you how, you wont, because its just not possible.
Some people also believe that the Evo/STi cant be competitive in TTA either. They think that the better class is either TTS/TTU/TTR. I think theyre probably right, but i think we have a much better chance in TTA than in TTB. Besides, if you want to be competitive in anything beyond TTA, youre going to have to invest a _great deal of money_. In TTA we dont have to spend the big bucks and we still can come very close to the 8.70 weight to power ratio limit, and still be able to mod the necessary aspects of the car. Let me show you how. For TTA, i have seen 2 general approaches, more power (cams) and +7 category tires (NT01s), or less power and +10 category tires (Hoosiers/V710s/Kooks...). I have taken the latter route. I think one can acquire faster times with my route than running cams and NT01s. Beyond that you also have to decide on the suspension route. I think a well setup +5 category suspension coupled with +10 category tires will result in faster times than a +9 category suspension that is coupled with +7 category tires. But thats just my opinion. As you can see, there are many different ways to approach this. To simplify, why dont you list all your mods and ill tell you what i think. If you would rather keep it private send me a PM and we can get into it there.
You guys mentioned the Z06 as being the car to have, and also the Evo being more competitive if you mod the **** out of it, and bump it up in class. With what a Z06 costs, wouldn't it be more cost effective just to throw some $$ at the Evo.
..and no offense to Corvette owners, but gawd.. Everytime I see one driving down the road, the dude's wearing a Member's Only jacket, Blue-Blockers, and those gloves that Dan Marino used to pimp on tv around Christmas time. Even if I had the money, I couldn't bring myself to owning one(and I now and always will drive Chevy trucks).
To summarize:
The Evo can be competitive against class-dominators such as the Vette if you throw some money at it, and (hopefully more than the former) some of your own time stripping off weight..?
Mueller built and maintains an Evo for a guy (Kent somethingorother) that he says holds it's own against Vipers (speaking of which, dude also owns two of the Orca(sp) Le Mans Vipers).
..and no offense to Corvette owners, but gawd.. Everytime I see one driving down the road, the dude's wearing a Member's Only jacket, Blue-Blockers, and those gloves that Dan Marino used to pimp on tv around Christmas time. Even if I had the money, I couldn't bring myself to owning one(and I now and always will drive Chevy trucks).
To summarize:
The Evo can be competitive against class-dominators such as the Vette if you throw some money at it, and (hopefully more than the former) some of your own time stripping off weight..?
Mueller built and maintains an Evo for a guy (Kent somethingorother) that he says holds it's own against Vipers (speaking of which, dude also owns two of the Orca(sp) Le Mans Vipers).
You guys mentioned the Z06 as being the car to have, and also the Evo being more competitive if you mod the **** out of it, and bump it up in class. With what a Z06 costs, wouldn't it be more cost effective just to throw some $$ at the Evo.
..and no offense to Corvette owners, but gawd.. Everytime I see one driving down the road, the dude's wearing a Member's Only jacket, Blue-Blockers, and those gloves that Dan Marino used to pimp on tv around Christmas time. Even if I had the money, I couldn't bring myself to owning one(and I now and always will drive Chevy trucks).
To summarize:
The Evo can be competitive against class-dominators such as the Vette if you throw some money at it, and (hopefully more than the former) some of your own time stripping off weight..?
Mueller built and maintains an Evo for a guy (Kent somethingorother) that he says holds it's own against Vipers (speaking of which, dude also owns two of the Orca(sp) Le Mans Vipers).
..and no offense to Corvette owners, but gawd.. Everytime I see one driving down the road, the dude's wearing a Member's Only jacket, Blue-Blockers, and those gloves that Dan Marino used to pimp on tv around Christmas time. Even if I had the money, I couldn't bring myself to owning one(and I now and always will drive Chevy trucks).
To summarize:
The Evo can be competitive against class-dominators such as the Vette if you throw some money at it, and (hopefully more than the former) some of your own time stripping off weight..?
Mueller built and maintains an Evo for a guy (Kent somethingorother) that he says holds it's own against Vipers (speaking of which, dude also owns two of the Orca(sp) Le Mans Vipers).
Johns car would be a TTR car, which is our unlimited class. And the driver is Kent Jordan, but that is another story in itself. Since youre a Socal guy like me, and a Muellerized customer like me, you probably know that theyre more focused on the Miller Cup Mustang Challenge now. Either way, long story short, the C5 Z06 is definitely the car to beat in TTA. The Evo has great potential in TTA, but given the rules and how dominant the C5 Z06 is in TTA, the better class for us is TTS and higher. Last year we probably had a better chance, but they changed one of the rules for this year which pretty much killed us. Someone definitely wants the C5 Z06 to be on top.